View Full Version : DirecTV HR20 vs. HR10-250?
I currently have an HR10-250 that's my primary TiVo, and for the most part, it works pretty well. I do run into problems with getting horrible reception on some high-definition channels periodically, and although I've had DirecTV out twice to tweak the alignment on the dish, for some reason I cannot completely eliminate the problem.
What's popped into my mind lately is that at some point in the future, DirecTV may force me to abandon my HR10-250 for high-definition local channels and migrate me to an HR20 (by cancelling my New York high-definition feeds and I bet that the Pittsburgh high-definition feeds are MPEG-4).
I'm trying to figure out just how bad that would be.
My HR10-250 is not hacked, but it does have a slightly larger hard drive (400GB). From what I could tell, the HR20 does now (unofficially) support the eSATA drive, so I could use a larger hard drive on it as well, so my capacity issues would be taken care of.
While I would more enjoy my HR10-250 to be hacked, each time I've tried, I've run into some sort of incompatibility that renders it useless with it complaining that the access card isn't inserted, or otherwise stuttering and making the system unresponsive until the access card is removed. So, since it's not hacked, that as a reason not to switch isn't there.
With the HR20, I'd get the interactive features which might be cool. I've never seen them, so I don't know.
I think that the HR20 is also single-tuner at this point, so that would be a negative.
While I really like TiVo and its functionality, what I really want is simply a fully functional DVR in terms of recording shows via things like Season Passes and WishLists and having good trick-play functionality. If the HR20 can do that, then maybe it's not such a bad thing and if I could get DirecTV to give me some good deals on a pair of them, maybe that'd work for me.
Skittles
01-14-2007, 07:05 PM
I think that the HR20 is also single-tuner at this point, so that would be a negative.I'm reasonably sure that it's dual tuner, but single buffer. You can record two shows at a time, but if you're watching Live TV, there's only one buffer.
I could be wrong...
I'm reasonably sure that it's dual tuner, but single buffer. You can record two shows at a time, but if you're watching Live TV, there's only one buffer.
If that's the case, then that's fine.
I probably saw "dual buffers" on the HR20 wish list and misthought of it as "dual tuners".
Skittles
01-14-2007, 07:25 PM
FWIW, my parents have the HR10-250. I love it, and I think it works well. But it's an aging beast that'll never be able to handle the MPEG-4 HD channels, so it's going to outlive its usefulness much sooner than I'd like.
I'll probably end up with an HR-20 in the next few weeks. I can't wait to start diving into HD programming. I'm seriously going to miss the TiVo interface, though. I'd almost consider the Comcast DVR if they could give me an idea of when they expect the TiVo software to roll out for it.
As far as I can figure, the only two really driving forces on the HR10-250 are the ability to put in a larger hard drive (now available with eSATA on the HR20) and the ability to extract programs with a hacked box. While I really did enjoy extracting programs so that I could convert them to watch on my PSP during long airline flights, it's not something I need to do from the high-definition TiVo and can just as easily do with my HDVR2 which is hacked and working just fine.
I was kind of surprised to consider that the fact that the HR20 isn't a TiVo doesn't bother me that much, as long as it offers similar functionality. "TiVo", as a sought out model, just isn't that important. I think that they set the standard for others to meet, but as long as others do, the brand name and image isn't as important anymore.
Skittles
01-14-2007, 08:24 PM
And see, I suspect my fascination with the TiVo software is just that I've used it so long that I've grown accustomed to it, and I subconsciously resist the idea of change. :)
I've briefly glanced at the HR-20's software, one night when I was at scottjf8's house. I really didn't care for it, because things just didn't seem placed intuitively for me. But at the same time, I was impressed with what it could do as a DVR, and the quality of the HD picture.
mercurial
01-14-2007, 11:39 PM
Eh... You can have my S3s when you pry them from my... yada yada yada...
eddyj
01-15-2007, 11:07 AM
The comments I read on the HR20 lead me to believe there are still some problems with scheduling. Apart from the great interface, I NEVER worry about whether the TiVo will record what I want. It just does. The only time I go into the ToDo list is when I am curious as to what new episodes will be recorded this week, but never to make sure things get recorded (that is why I have the thing in the first place, so I don't have to find out if there is a new episode and make sure it gets recorded!).
Until I stop hearing comments like "You need to keep a close eye on the ToDo list", I will not consider switching to the HR20. Besides, by the time I am forced to, the Comcast TiVo should be out, and I will then reconsider whether I want to stay with DIRECTV.
walters
01-15-2007, 11:29 AM
It's still very much a product in-development. I count about 15 public software updates since September. Now some see that as evidence that they're working hard. I think many of us who work in software engineering see that differently.
BTW, I believe it has the same absurd limitation of 50 Series Links (i.e. Season Passes) that the awful R15 has (which I actually have in my bedroom just to see how bad it is).
Fleegle
01-15-2007, 02:24 PM
I've had a very similar thought as marc, but for a different reason. DirecTV recently announced that by the end of 2007, they expect an additional 50 HD channels, including an HD SciFi channel and USA channel. I expect they will all be MPEG4.
When I got my HDTV, I briefly considered going with Dish, but they refused to give me 2 dual-tuner DVRs for my bedrooms and a dual-tuner HD DVR in the living room. They have some rule about 4 tuners in the house... Their HD DVR
can be set to dual-tuners in one room, or you can set one tuner to be plugged into the cable wiring in the house and controlled with an RF remote from any room. So not only did they want me to share the hard drive space and tuners on the living room TiVo, they wanted me to degrade the picture by having it only come in over coax.
I have both boxes - the HR10 and the HR20. The HR20 does have dual tuners + OTA + networking (for music and pictures only) + eSata port that you can expand by plugging in an external drive. It is possible that they may never enable dual live buffers. They have had a lot of software releases, 6 of the 15 were release candidates that never went National, but they are averaging 3 releases per month. My HR20 boxes have been very good, however, I have noticed a couple of issues with the latest release. I think the interface is much better than Tivo, you can do most functions and still watch TV. One touch record and two click series link are great, however, there is a limit of 50 series links, and there is no wish list function. I don't think the search is as good as Tivo either. So if you are not a power user, and you have less than 50 series link/season passes, it may be OK for you, but just realize this box is still in Beta testing. As much as I like the box you cannot ignore the fact that the average user cannot take the box home, set it up and perform basic DVR functions without some sort of issues yet. In all honesty, I do not have much confidence in the HR10 with 6.3a/b either. I have had random reboots, corrupted guide data and audio dropouts with my HR10's. Since the HR20 has been more reliable for me, I have the HR10's as a back up box only. As always YMMV..... ;)
One touch record and two click series link are great, however, there is a limit of 50 series links, and there is no wish list function. I don't think the search is as good as Tivo either. So if you are not a power user, and you have less than 50 series link/season passes, it may be OK for you, but just realize this box is still in Beta testing.
The limit on 50 "series link" and no wishlists may be problems. In some cases, I'm using WishLists in order to record programs that air on multiple channels without having to use multiple Season Passes.
On the HR20, if I were to set up a series link for, say, a series (new episodes online) on HBO and on HBOW, will it record both, or would it recognize that if it records the HBO episode, the HBOW one would be redundant?
bigpuma
01-18-2007, 10:25 AM
The limit on 50 "series link" and no wishlists may be problems. In some cases, I'm using WishLists in order to record programs that air on multiple channels without having to use multiple Season Passes.
On the HR20, if I were to set up a series link for, say, a series (new episodes online) on HBO and on HBOW, will it record both, or would it recognize that if it records the HBO episode, the HBOW one would be redundant?
The no wishlist thing is not quite true. You can set up a saved search that autorecords which would work across channels. As far as I can tell the only thing you can't do is search all of your wishlist items at once. There is a 50 series link limit which I don't understand but also doesn't affect me personally as I have maybe 30 series links.
The only real problem I have is the missed recordings. I have had a handful of recordings in the last couple of months that simply didn't work. It shows up as recorded in the playlist but when you play it you get a black screen and nothing happens. I forced a download of the latest software release candidate on Sunday night and it has happened 3 times since then.
Other than that I am very happy with the interface and speed of this machine. I just hope they can fix the bugs.
mercurial
01-18-2007, 10:48 AM
The only real problem I have is the missed recordings. I have had a handful of recordings in the last couple of months that simply didn't work. It shows up as recorded in the playlist but when you play it you get a black screen and nothing happens. I forced a download of the latest software release candidate on Sunday night and it has happened 3 times since then.
On a PVR, with a problem like that, do you really need to have any others to make it pretty worthless?
I'm sure some of you guys visit here, but there is a good thread about the HR20
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648
I also found this article
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/01/directvs_hr20_-.php
bigpuma
01-18-2007, 07:04 PM
On a PVR, with a problem like that, do you really need to have any others to make it pretty worthless?
Well no, but until this week it was so rare it didn't seem like a big deal. Also it only happened on shows I didn't care that much about. You are correct though that it is a deal breaker of a problem if they don't get it sorted out.
scottjf8
01-19-2007, 12:47 AM
The no wishlist thing is not quite true. You can set up a saved search that autorecords which would work across channels. As far as I can tell the only thing you can't do is search all of your wishlist items at once. There is a 50 series link limit which I don't understand but also doesn't affect me personally as I have maybe 30 series links.
The only real problem I have is the missed recordings. I have had a handful of recordings in the last couple of months that simply didn't work. It shows up as recorded in the playlist but when you play it you get a black screen and nothing happens. I forced a download of the latest software release candidate on Sunday night and it has happened 3 times since then.
Other than that I am very happy with the interface and speed of this machine. I just hope they can fix the bugs.
But you have to keep going into the search and hit "record all".. you can't tell it to automatcially search and record like the Tivo does.
My HR20 is the biggest pile of shit.. I hate the thing... unfortunately if I want HD locals, I'm stuck....
walters
01-19-2007, 10:07 AM
But you have to keep going into the search and hit "record all".. you can't tell it to automatcially search and record like the Tivo does.
What does that mean? Are you saying it only schedules search hits that are currently in the guide at the time you perform the action? It doesn't pick up new hits as the guide data grows? I thought the autorecord showed up in the prioritizer like a Series Link.
scottjf8
01-19-2007, 10:41 AM
What does that mean? Are you saying it only schedules search hits that are currently in the guide at the time you perform the action? It doesn't pick up new hits as the guide data grows? I thought the autorecord showed up in the prioritizer like a Series Link.
That's correct.. SL's will automatically schedule things, but in order to autorecord keywords, you have to keep going into "recent searches", click the item, wait for it to search, then click "record all"
PITA
walters
01-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Wow, that sucks. I think even the R15 does it the right way (I'll have to check sometime).
BrettStah
01-19-2007, 12:50 PM
So, the HR20 gives you access to any available MPEG-4 HD channel, including locals once they're available in your market (excluding the NY and LA network channels for the time being, which are still in MPEG-2).
BUT... you can't:
Easily watch two live football games and switch back and forth between the tuners like you can with a Tivo.
Have more than 50 season passes (or whatever they're called).
No true auto-recording wishlists like Tivos have.
Any other positives or negatives to the HR20? Once the New Orleans locals are available, I'll probably wind up wanting to try out one of them, especially if they get the local NBC station in HD (the local station isn't broadcasting an OTA signal since Katrina).
walters
01-19-2007, 01:04 PM
Any other positives or negatives to the HR20? Once the New Orleans locals are available, I'll probably wind up wanting to try out one of them, especially if they get the local NBC station in HD (the local station isn't broadcasting an OTA signal since Katrina).
Some people seem to like that live TV (or the recording you're watching) is always active: put in the corner while using menus. Myself (on the R15), I hate that, so it can be a positive or a negative depending on the person.
BrettStah
01-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Some people seem to like that live TV (or the recording you're watching) is always active: put in the corner while using menus. Myself (on the R15), I hate that, so it can be a positive or a negative depending on the person.
How does that work if you are recording two football games, and then want to switch between the two recordings? Would you see the live version of a game in the corner even though you're actually watching it delayed by whatever minutes? That would sort of rule out using that method as an alterative to the dual buffers.
walters
01-19-2007, 01:15 PM
How does that work if you are recording two football games, and then want to switch between the two recordings? Would you see the live version of a game in the corner even though you're actually watching it delayed by whatever minutes? That would sort of rule out using that method as an alterative to the dual buffers.
It just takes whatever you're currently watching (whether it's the live buffer or a recording) and shinks it to PIP size when you go into a menu. So if you're watching one game delayed and go to the playlist to switch to the other, the game you're watching continues in the small window while you are navigating the list. I suppose when you started the other recording it would pick up where you left off, so it probably would be a reasonable workaround for dual buffers.
BrettStah
01-19-2007, 02:27 PM
So if I have 2 football games being recorded, and I pause game #1 at the beginning, and start watching game #2 one live, I can pause #2, go to the menu, choose game #1, and watch that from the paused location for awhile, and then pause it, and then go back to the menu and choose game #2, and continue back and forth, and at no time will it jump to real-time in the menu? How clunky is that to do in reality with this DVR, if you know?
walters
01-19-2007, 02:35 PM
I think it would work, but I have no experience doing it. I think once you've seen both there's a shortcut ("back" or "prev"; yep, the remote has both).
Fleegle
01-19-2007, 04:24 PM
OK, here's something I had heard when it was released and I want to verify: Can you record two shows at the same time and watch a third, previously recorded, program at the same time? At release, this was supposedly not possible. That right there is a deal-breaker, if true.
JoeyJoJo
01-19-2007, 04:37 PM
Yes you can. Also, I've had an HR20 since september 19th and have had almost no problems with it -- the only missed recordings have been when I had my priorities set wrong and the conflict resolution was actually against the show I wanted because of that. I've had to do a total of two reboots so far and have been quite happy with it.
*ETA -- I believe the confusion from when it was released was that there was a typo in the manual that stated that you could actually record 3 shows with the OTA set up but that is not the case, it treats OTA and Sattelite inputs the same way Tivo does.
BrettStah
01-19-2007, 04:40 PM
Yes you can. Also, I've had an HR20 since september 19th and have had almost no problems with it -- the only missed recordings have been when I had my priorities set wrong and the conflict resolution was actually against the show I wanted because of that. I've had to do a total of two reboots so far and have been quite happy with it.
*ETA -- I believe the confusion from when it was released was that there was a typo in the manual that stated that you could actually record 3 shows with the OTA set up but that is not the case, it treats OTA and Sattelite inputs the same way Tivo does.
Joey, how easy is it to switch back and forth between two shows that are both being recorded? Too much of a hassle, in your opinion, or about as easy as it is with a DirecTivo?
JoeyJoJo
01-19-2007, 04:57 PM
I've never used Dual Live Buffers on my DirecTivos (not a huge sports fan) so I couldn't tell you a comparrison on that.
The HR20 does have a nifty little mini menu function that brings up "My Playlist" (Now Playing list) while the rest of the image is active, so I would guess it would be pretty easy to switch between two shows that are recording. I can probably test it out this weekend and get back to you on it.
bigpuma
01-19-2007, 06:38 PM
But you have to keep going into the search and hit "record all".. you can't tell it to automatcially search and record like the Tivo does.
Sorry I have never used this feature on my TiVos nor attempted to on the HR20 so I didn't realize the limitation.
My HR20 is the biggest pile of shit.. I hate the thing... unfortunately if I want HD locals, I'm stuck....
I guess I have had better luck with mine. In some ways I like it better than the tivo.
BrettStah
01-19-2007, 07:20 PM
I've never used Dual Live Buffers on my DirecTivos (not a huge sports fan) so I couldn't tell you a comparrison on that.
The HR20 does have a nifty little mini menu function that brings up "My Playlist" (Now Playing list) while the rest of the image is active, so I would guess it would be pretty easy to switch between two shows that are recording. I can probably test it out this weekend and get back to you on it.
That'd be great if you could test it... basically just have two different things being recorded, and see how easily you can switch back and forth, pausing each one before switching, and making sure it remembers your previously-paused location of each recording. If you get a chance, that is... :)
JoeyJoJo
01-21-2007, 12:03 PM
Just tested it. I had two shows recording on different channels and pressed "menu" then "playlist." The menu opens up and you can see your playlist in a small box on the left side of the screen. Selected one of the shows and started watching. Menu-> Playlist again and selected the other show which started playing. Went back to the first recording and it started up where I had left off.
So, it does work, however it seems to take a few seconds to switch between the recordings. I checked the standard def DTivo I also have connected to that TV and the switching buffers is faster and smoother, but this workaround does make it possible to do what you are looking to do on the HR20.
testify4
01-26-2007, 12:11 PM
So, the HR20 gives you access to any available MPEG-4 HD channel, including locals once they're available in your market (excluding the NY and LA network channels for the time being, which are still in MPEG-2).
I have been doing some research on the HR10-250, and just noticed this tidbit on another forum yesterday.
So, I won't be able to record locals through DirecTV with the HR10? I would have thought I would have seen this complaint come up more frequently, but maybe most people can get HD OTA.
Now I'm torn. I want the Tivo, but I can't get HD OTA without a big honkin' antenna and it appears DirecTV delivers Denver's locals up here.
JoeyJoJo
01-26-2007, 12:15 PM
I have been doing some research on the HR10-250, and just noticed this tidbit on another forum yesterday.
So, I won't be able to record locals through DirecTV with the HR10? I would have thought I would have seen this complaint come up more frequently, but maybe most people can get HD OTA.
Now I'm torn. I want the Tivo, but I can't get HD OTA without a big honkin' antenna and it appears DirecTV delivers Denver's locals up here.
Essentially yes. D* delivers HD locals in MPEG4 and the HR10-250 cannot receive those channels. So if you can't receive OTA HD and want locals in HD with a DVR, the HR20-700 is the only D* HD-DVR alternative.
testify4
01-26-2007, 12:40 PM
Essentially yes. D* delivers HD locals in MPEG4 and the HR10-250 cannot receive those channels. So if you can't receive OTA HD and want locals in HD with a DVR, the HR20-700 is the only D* HD-DVR alternative.
Thanks for the definitive answer- I wasn't sure since the posts I was reading on the other forum were older.
Looks like I might have to consider the HR20 instead, or see if an antenna in the attic could do it... but antennaweb says I would need a big directional one. I was looking forward to Lost and CSI in HD, so that's a deal breaker.
walters
01-26-2007, 12:45 PM
Antennaweb has been known to overestimate, at least that was true for my brother in West Palm Beach.
JoeyJoJo
01-26-2007, 12:47 PM
The main problem I've seen over at DBStalk with regards to the HR20 is that the user experience varies WILDLY. I've had to reboot exactly once due to a lockup and have forced downloads on all of the beta versions of the software (Earl over at DBSTalk has been instrumental in getting the community involved in expanded beta testing to get the unit up to speed faster) and other than the occasional out of sync voice (fixed by exiting out of the recording and going back in) and the rare pixelation, I've been very happy with it.
The other side is that there are people who are having no end of problems with it and there doesn't seem to be any rationale for who is doing fine and who is not. It seems that it is a crapshoot whether or not it will work out fine for you.
scottjf8
01-26-2007, 12:58 PM
Sorry I have never used this feature on my TiVos nor attempted to on the HR20 so I didn't realize the limitation.
I guess I have had better luck with mine. In some ways I like it better than the tivo.
Quick update
They've changed this, and now they have a "autorecord" feature of searches - you can tell it to autorecord new programs that show up in the guide..
<borat>NIIIICE</borat>
I was looking at my Season Pass list on my HR10 the other day and noted that there were about 80 entries in the list. I did prune down a bunch for orphaned entries for shows that weren't on anymore, and there are a bunch of duplicates solely for the purpose of catching east- and west-coast feeds (to have a backup for conflict resolution), but I would have to do some actual cutting of entries in that list to get down to 50.
Nonetheless, when DirecTV either cuts off my distant HD network feeds or starts rolling out their new HD channels, I'll probably have to see about getting one or two of the HR20's and figure out what to do about all my Season Passes.
BrettStah
01-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Quick update
They've changed this, and now they have a "autorecord" feature of searches - you can tell it to autorecord new programs that show up in the guide..
<borat>NIIIICE</borat>
Do these count against the 50-show limit? Any word on the 50-show limit being increased/removed completely?
walters
01-26-2007, 03:42 PM
Do these count against the 50-show limit? Any word on the 50-show limit being increased/removed completely?
They do count, and the limit seems pretty low on the list of things to fix.
For the R15, that limit of 50 is just a theoretical limit. Very few ever get more than about 40 before it gets really unstable (which probably shows why there is a limit in the first place).
I guess for people who want a receiver that they occasionally record stuff with, 50 seems like plenty, but for the TiVo owners who tend to record everything they would ever even be remotely interested in watching, and then watch almost nothing live, 50 just doesn't cut it. Especially since you need to compensate for the lack of suggestions by recording even more low priority stuff.
bigpuma
01-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Just to update my earlier review. The latest software download has been working great for me. I have not had a single missed recording nor had to reboot. Although it has only been a week. I agree the 50 limit seems low but personally I guess I don't record that many shows as I only have 30 series links and this is my main DVR.
Skibum
01-28-2007, 04:03 PM
While I really like TiVo and its functionality, what I really want is simply a fully functional DVR in terms of recording shows via things like Season Passes and WishLists and having good trick-play functionality. If the HR20 can do that, then maybe it's not such a bad thing and if I could get DirecTV to give me some good deals on a pair of them, maybe that'd work for me.
Marc- Have you thought about getting the S3? Of course, you would have to go back to cable. Not sure who your cable company is, but Cox here in Phoenix, is fantastic. A few minor hiccups with the S3, but definetly a great unit.
Marc- Have you thought about getting the S3? Of course, you would have to go back to cable. Not sure who your cable company is, but Cox here in Phoenix, is fantastic. A few minor hiccups with the S3, but definetly a great unit.
Going to a Series 3 box for my home would be cost-prohibitive as I'd need to get at least three of them, in addition to switching to cable. Plus, I'd need to start paying the fees to TiVo, whereas right now I get my DVR service from DirecTV for free (grandfathered from the first DirecTiVo).
It is something that I keep in mind, though, especially since Comcast took over Adelphia. To be honest, I'm not sure if that will necessarily be a good thing, but my general impression was that Comcast has a bit more muscle to throw around in terms of offering programming than Adelphia did.
mercurial
01-28-2007, 11:11 PM
You'd need 3 S3s? For storage capcity or you have that many TV/conflicts to resolve? I've got a mix of S3's and S2DTs and it works great.
Oh, good point. I'd only need two Series 3 boxes (for the two high-definition TV's) and one regular dual-tuner (for a third TV).
Can the dual-tuner do a mix between a digital cable receiver and analog cable so as not to need two cable boxes (knowing the different channels available on each)?
mercurial
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
Can the dual-tuner do a mix between a digital cable receiver and analog cable so as not to need two cable boxes (knowing the different channels available on each)?
The DT box can only tape one show at a time from the Cable Box so you'd only need one STB. When you set it up, you tell it which channels are analog and which it needs the box from. It can record two analog or one analog and one digital at the same time (if it's two analog, it splits the cable internally and records both from it without the box at all, if I understand correctly).
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