NBC: Leno in prime-time to end

[grondramb]

http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/nbc-leno-in-prime-271702.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

It had to die - it sucked and the Tonight show is much worse without Jay.

http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/nbc-leno-in-prime-271702.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

PASADENA, Calif — NBC decided to end the Jay Leno experiment when some of its affiliates started talking about dropping the nightly prime-time show, its top entertainment executive said Sunday.
Enlarge photo
http://www.accessatlanta.com/multimedia/dynamic/00370/NBC_Leno_JPEG_370788l.jpg





NBC Universal Television Entertainment Chairman Jeff Gaspin said Sunday that Leno's nightly prime-time show will end with the beginning of the Winter Olympics on Feb. 12. NBC wants Leno to do an 11:35 p.m. show each night, a return to his old time slot, Gaspin said.


Fox indicated yesterday they would hire Conan given a chance.

[mercurial]

And there was much rejoicing. Too bad his 10pm slot already helped contribute to the death of at least one really good show, Life.

[Turtleboy]

Jay didn't lose. Jay won. Jay is getting 1135 back.

[Gus]

Jay didn't lose. Jay won. Jay is getting 1135 back.Who said Jay lost?

[minidreamin]

And there was much rejoicing. Too bad his 10pm slot already helped contribute to the death of at least one really good show, Life.
Very well put. Life was a good show. I would have loved to see it continue.

[Mikkel_Knight]

http://sutterink.blogspot.com/2010/01/nbcs-act-of-contrition_10.html
Cute and amusing

[AJRitz]

Jay Leno - the New Coke of network television.

[busyba]

And there was much rejoicing. Too bad his 10pm slot already helped contribute to the death of at least one really good show, Life.

Really? I thought Life was gone before Jay took 10pm.

[Turtleboy]

Jay Leno - the Brett Farvre of network television.

FYP

[mercurial]

And there was much rejoicing. Too bad his 10pm slot already helped contribute to the death of at least one really good show, Life.

Really? I thought Life was gone before Jay took 10pm.

When I clean up my Season Pass list from time-to-time, I'll google shows I'm not sure about (e.g. "life cancelled") to see if one I'm not sure about are still around. I remember one of the first articles I hit mentioning that Life was canned also mentioned that Jay's take over of the 10pm slot had forced out a lot of shows with less than stellar ratings.

Ah.. Here it is...

It's too bad that a show like Life couldn't survive, but maybe it could find second life on something like the USA Network. It didn't stand a real chance at coming back when it was announced that Jay Leno would be taking over the 10 p.m. time slot in the next season of television, as it has led to cutting many 10 p.m. shows. The official release of the NBC fall lineup will be coming on Tuesday, May 19th, but for now, they have just been releasing sneak-peaks at what the shows are which will be tested.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1713617/life_canceled_by_nbc_wont_return_for.html?cat=2

[grondramb]

Jay didn't lose. Jay won. Jay is getting 1135 back.Who said Jay lost?


Well it certainly looks like Letterman comes out of this a winner - unless Conana winds up with an 11:30 show on Fox in which case they may all have lower ratings.

[mbklein]

My only late-night TV rule: Just leave Colin Craig Ferguson well enough alone, and nobody gets hurt.

[procrastinator]

My only late-night TV rule: Just leave Colin Ferguson well enough alone, and nobody gets hurt.If you mean Craig Ferguson, then I agree with you. He's the only one of the current late night hosts who's actually funny. The again, he's on so late at night that perhaps my standards are lower.

[mbklein]

Sorry. Yes, Craig. My brain knew what I meant. Colin is the star of Eureka.

[busyba]

Sorry. Yes, Craig. My brain knew what I meant. Colin is the star of Eureka.

I thought Colin Ferguson was the guy who shot a bunch of people on a LIRR commuter train.

[grondramb]

NBC MEETS THE PRESS: Officially Cancels Leno Show At 10PM: Wants To Keep Jay AND Conan AND Jimmy; Admits Nothing A Done Deal Yet; Claims Leno In Primetime Was Doing OK; Blames Affiliates For Making Network Yank It; "PR Nightmare" (http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/nbc-officially-cancels-leno-at-10pm-nothing-else-a-done-deal/)



http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/nbc-officially-cancels-leno-at-10pm-nothing-else-a-done-deal/

[keirgrey]

Well, I feel bad for Conan. It's like Carson deciding to come back after Leno had had the show for six months.

[Agatha]

Well, I feel bad for Conan. It's like Carson deciding to come back after Leno had had the show for six months.

I agree. Conan moved his family across the country for this opportunity, and they're yanking it away from him. Yes, it will take a bit for him to develop a following. IIRC, it took a little bit for Leno to do the same. Leno didn't win the late night war until he had Hugh Grant on after he'd been arrested. Then people just stuck with him.

If Leno's prime time show didn't work, the network needs to just let him walk away. Was it their decision to move him? I thought Leno wanted less work, and they gave him this as an opportunity. Moving him back just seems a slap in the face to Conan. Besides, if it were anyone besides Leno, would they have moved them to a coveted spot after they crashed and burned in prime time? Nope. They would have just cancelled the show.

[Mikkel_Knight]

but NBC doesn't want to let Leno go somewhere else (ABC or FOX) because they know that up against Conan, Leno will win... Leno lost BIG time for a couple of years to Letterman until that Grant interview - and then it could almost be considered a fluke because Grant didn't back out... "nobody" was watching Leno then and only watched because of Grant... then the two started pulling close with Leno eventually taking over in the ratings war...

Leno wanted out, so NBC courted Conan, now Leno wants to stay... what's NBC supposed to do? Let their late-night cash-cow just go to another network? It was stupid of NBC to run Leno's show @ 10pm... they should have spent some money and developed a drama or 3 instead of putting Jay on for the entire week...

[Mikkel_Knight]

instead, now we'll get a couple three reality shows... yay...

[sonnik]

Leno wanted out, so NBC courted Conan, now Leno wants to stay... what's NBC supposed to do? ...

I'd say definately let Jay go. This isn't the 90's anymore, they need to invest in the future. Sure, Jay may be a "quick fix" - but Jay isn't going to keep the demos, and I'm sure he'll want to retire at some point.

[BrettStah]

I don't think Jay wanted out. NBC knew that in order to keep Conan, they'd need to promise him the Tonight Show, so they came up with this idea of putting Leno on in primetime.

[Pendragn]

Leno wanted out, so NBC courted Conan, now Leno wants to stay... what's NBC supposed to do? Let their late-night cash-cow just go to another network? It was stupid of NBC to run Leno's show @ 10pm... they should have spent some money and developed a drama or 3 instead of putting Jay on for the entire week...

I don't think Jay wanted out. NBC knew that in order to keep Conan, they'd need to promise him the Tonight Show, so they came up with this idea of putting Leno on in primetime.

I had understood it to be like Brett did. Leno DID NOT want out, but Conan's contract was up and he was considering leaving NBC for a rival. To keep him from doing that they promised him The Tonight Show, pushing Leno out as collateral damage.

Leno got pushed out of TTS, but didn't want to stop performing. NBC didn't want him going to a rival either, as he was still bringing in viewers. So to keep him at NBC they gave him the prime time show.

tk

[Mikkel_Knight]

I tthought that Leno wanted out and gave NBC "notice" that he'd "retire" in a couple of years, so NBC promised Conan the Tonight Show when Leno was done. As Leno's retirement date approached, he realized that he wasn't done and wanted to continue so they gave Leno the 10pm slot since they didn't want him bolting to go up against Conan...

[mbklein]

Conan O'Brien Says He Won't Host "Tonight Show" Following Leno (http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/conan-obrien-says-he-wont-do-tonight-show-following-leno/)

Conan's letter has a very classy opening paragraph:People of Earth:

In the last few days, I've been getting a lot of sympathy calls, and I want to start by making it clear that no one should waste a second feeling sorry for me. For 17 years, I've been getting paid to do what I love most and, in a world with real problems, I've been absurdly lucky. That said, I've been suddenly put in a very public predicament and my bosses are demanding an immediate decision.

His closing is good, too:

Have a great day and, for the record, I am truly sorry about my hair; it’s always been that way.

Yours,

Conan

He may have some trouble getting out of his NBC contract -- it apparently doesn't promise him a specific time slot, only that the show he hosts will be called "The Tonight Show."

[Agatha]

Conan O'Brien Says He Won't Host "Tonight Show" Following Leno (http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/conan-obrien-says-he-wont-do-tonight-show-following-leno/)

Conan's letter has a very classy opening paragraph:People of Earth:

In the last few days, I've been getting a lot of sympathy calls, and I want to start by making it clear that no one should waste a second feeling sorry for me. For 17 years, I've been getting paid to do what I love most and, in a world with real problems, I've been absurdly lucky. That said, I've been suddenly put in a very public predicament and my bosses are demanding an immediate decision.

His closing is good, too:

Have a great day and, for the record, I am truly sorry about my hair; it’s always been that way.

Yours,

Conan

He may have some trouble getting out of his NBC contract -- it apparently doesn't promise him a specific time slot, only that the show he hosts will be called "The Tonight Show."
However, the Tonight Show has been at that time slot for 60 years. It could be considered implied. I'm sure they gave him an option to leave, since they were waiting for Leno and Conan to respond to their decision and what they would do after the weekend. That implies to me that Conan had some sort of say in the matter.

[Mikkel_Knight]

yeah - I'm betting that NBC doesn't want to take that contract to court... not with the history behind the show...

[mbklein]

Conan has the option to leave, but he may not be able to host another show elsewhere until his NBC contract expires. NBC will certainly fight him on that, because for them, keeping him off the air entirely is the next best thing to having him host an NBC show.

He has to demonstrate that NBC breached his contract, and I'm not sure "implied" will cut it.

[sonnik]

'atta boy, Conan.

The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now.

[Mikkel_Knight]

Conan has the option to leave, but he may not be able to host another show elsewhere until his NBC contract expires. NBC will certainly fight him on that, because for them, keeping him off the air entirely is the next best thing to having him host an NBC show.

He has to demonstrate that NBC breached his contract, and I'm not sure "implied" will cut it.
without having seen the contract, I think that being the host of a 60-year running show and then having that show stripped and chopped up would be a breach of contract - if nothing else, a non good-faith issue would be easily identifiable

[Pendragn]

'atta boy, Conan.

The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now.

His monologue last night was great. "Looks like I've been skipped over for the Tonight Show AGAIN!"

tk

[mbklein]

"Wait...Do *I* still have a show?"

[Skanter]

'atta boy, Conan.

The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now.

Jack Paar?

[sonnik]

'atta boy, Conan.

The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now.

Jack Paar?

Good point. Even Johnny didn't like the way the network handled the Tonight Show. But I was I was talking about the next most recent (that is... Dave).

[Skanter]

'atta boy, Conan.

The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now.

Jack Paar?

Good point. Even Johnny didn't like the way the network handled the Tonight Show. But I was I was talking about the next most recent (that is... Dave).

From today's NY Times:

"...By Hollywood standards, Mr. O?Brien's letter was an extraordinary gesture. releasing a statement to make public his anger at the company paying him tens of millions of dollars before he even reached a settlement. The closest episode in history may be when Jack Paar walked off the set of The Tonight Show in a huff over corporate censorship."

[sonnik]

From today's NY Times:

"...By Hollywood standards, Mr. O?Brien's letter was an extraordinary gesture. releasing a statement to make public his anger at the company paying him tens of millions of dollars before he even reached a settlement. The closest episode in history may be when Jack Paar walked off the set of The Tonight Show in a huff over corporate censorship."

Yeah, I understood what you meant. My point is that NBC has a history of pissing off (even potential) Tonight show hosts.

1) The famous Jack Paar issue, cited above.
2) Carson was upset once ownership/rights transferred to "Carson Productions"; NBC reportedly began being problematic on the Burbank studio property. At an affiliate's meeting, Leno was openly remarked as being Johnny Carson's replacement, despite Carson making no announcement to leaving the show. Carson also believed that Letterman should replace him.
3) Letterman, passed by for Tonight, left the network. Hence my remark "The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now."

I'm not sure why you placed the last sentence in bold type, as it seems to imply that you interpret my comments as being contradictory to yours. They're not.

[Skanter]

From today's NY Times:

"...By Hollywood standards, Mr. O?Brien's letter was an extraordinary gesture. releasing a statement to make public his anger at the company paying him tens of millions of dollars before he even reached a settlement. The closest episode in history may be when Jack Paar walked off the set of The Tonight Show in a huff over corporate censorship."

Yeah, I understood what you meant. My point is that NBC has a history of pissing off (even potential) Tonight show hosts.

1) The famous Jack Paar issue, cited above.
2) Carson was upset once ownership/rights transferred to "Carson Productions"; NBC reportedly began being problematic on the Burbank studio property. At an affiliate's meeting, Leno was openly remarked as being Johnny Carson's replacement, despite Carson making no announcement to leaving the show. Carson also believed that Letterman should replace him.
3) Letterman, passed by for Tonight, left the network. Hence my remark "The last guy who was fed up with NBC's handling of the Tonight Show is doing pretty well for himself right now."

I'm not sure why you placed the last sentence in bold type, as it seems to imply that you interpret my comments as being contradictory to yours. They're not.

No, I had no doubts that you understood what I had said, or that there was anything contradictory.

I was just proud that I had come up with the Paar-comparison a day before the NY Times, hence scooping them (of a sort). That's why i used the bold type. :)

[pgogborn]

A CEO at work >
NBC CEO's Voicemails For Conan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/nbc-ceos-voicemails-for-c_n_422005.html)

[grondramb]

Yeah,the plot thickens

ZUCKER THREATENS TO ICE CONAN! Says "I'll Keep You Off The Air For 3 1/2 Years"; Conan Reps Counter: "This Will End Up In Front Of A Judge If NBC Doesn't Wise Up" (http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/)



http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/

[Mikkel_Knight]

that's absurd... if they try and keep him off the air that long, it'll be as long if not longer for Jay to gain the top position in late night again... people will sure still like Jay, but I think more people will "side" with Conan than Jay...

Why is it that Jay it not being painted out to be the bad guy here more than he is? He announced his "retirement" years ago (2004 IIRC) and allowed NBC to set their succession plan in place. Now, he wasn't done and wanted to stay in TV and yet he's not being dragged through the mud quite as much as I think he should be...

Man - this is two Tonight Show transitions that NBC has completely and totally fucked up... who will want to take over the Tonight Show with extreme enthusiasm after this debacle?

[grondramb]

NBC, though, may be legally in the right - they apparently have the contractual choice of when to air the Tonight Show as late as 12:05

A friend in the industry said the real issue is that Leno is easy to work with and Conan is not.

[sonnik]

If NBC benches O'Brien, they gotta pay him.

CBS Radio did this with "Opie and Anthony" - they payed them to sit at home rather than let them go somewhere else to compete. However, this is a pretty sizable TV deal. With all the money NBC will have spent trying to "repopulate 10pm" (scrambling to buy and produce new dramas) - some reports state that NBC will dump $200 million just to correct by year's end. The whole fiasco will be $300 when said and done. The cost of benching O'Briean would add another (by some estimates) $60 million. (Reportedly close to $20 million a year, but some reports say $10 million).

NBC can't justify that kind of cash if there's no return on investment.

[grondramb]

If NBC benches O'Brien, they gotta pay him.

...

NBC can't justify that kind of cash if there's no return on investment.

Are you sure they have to pay him if he has a contract with a non-compete to do the tonight show starting as late as 12:05 and he refuses to do the job he contracted for?

Maybe he has a really sweet contract where he doesn't have to do his job but that would have been really stupid on NBC's part.

[JYoung]

that's absurd... if they try and keep him off the air that long, it'll be as long if not longer for Jay to gain the top position in late night again... people will sure still like Jay, but I think more people will "side" with Conan than Jay...


O'Brien has been hemorrhaging viewers since he took over the Tonight Show.
In August of 2009, he'd lost over 40% of Leno's audience. (4.6 million vs. 2.6 million.)


Why is it that Jay it not being painted out to be the bad guy here more than he is? He announced his "retirement" years ago (2004 IIRC) and allowed NBC to set their succession plan in place. Now, he wasn't done and wanted to stay in TV and yet he's not being dragged through the mud quite as much as I think he should be...


Because Leno never said "I will retire at this time and Conan will take over".
NBC announced that O'Brien was taking over the Tonight Show in 2009.
Leno went along with the announcement but he never said he'd retire.

NBC was scared when they heard rumblings that he wanted to continue to do a TV show so they threw the 10PM one at him.


Man - this is two Tonight Show transitions that NBC has completely and totally fucked up... who will want to take over the Tonight Show with extreme enthusiasm after this debacle?

Agreed. NBC has been incredibly short sighted for years now and it's biting them royally, right before the Comcast deal.

[grondramb]

This matches and amplifies what I've been hearing.

Source: Conan O'Brien Playing Right Into NBC's Hands



A very high placed source within the network tells "Entertainment Tonight" that the NBC game plan was always to get rid of Conan O’Brien with as little financial pay-out as possible.


In other words, Conan O’Brien’s played right into his bosses’ hands when he refused to move his show to 12:05 a.m.


“This is want they wanted,” said the source who wished to remain anonymous. "They didn’t really want to give Conan the 12:05 slot. They had to pick between Jay [Leno] and Conan and they picked Jay. They couldn’t just fire Conan, it would have been too expensive. So they pushed the show back. It was a wooden offer.”


http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/etonline-headlines/source-conan-o-brien-275102.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm&imw=Y

[grondramb]

And this makes it sound almost like NBC was prepared...

NBC Replaces Leno at 10 With Seinfeld Show and Dramas (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=9565495)

ABC News - ‎31 minutes ago‎
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Jerry Seinfeld's new marriage comedy, crime series "Law & Order" and new family drama "Parenthood" will replace "The Jay Leno Show," at ...
Jay Leno Leaves Primetime, Jerry Seinfeld Steps In? (http://www.theinsider.com/news/3153954_Jay_Leno_Leaves_Primetime_Jerry_Seinfeld_S teps_In) TheInsider.com

NBC Post-Leno: Seinfeld on Thursdays, 'Parenthood' on Tuesdays (http://www.thewrap.com/ind-column/nbc-post-leno-seinfeld-thursdays-parenthood-tuesdays-12976) TheWrap

NBC's new 10 PM lineup includes Seinfeld, Parenthood, Friday Night Lights (http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/01/14/nbcs-new-10-pm-lineup-includes-seinfeld-parenthood-friday-nig/) TV Squad (blog)

Orlando Sentinel (blog) (http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2010/01/nbc-to-use-law-order-jerry-seinfeld-reality-show-to-help-fill-holes-left-in-prime-time-by-the-jay-leno-show.html) - Zap2it.com (blog) (http://blog.zap2it.com/korbitv/2010/01/jerry-seinfeld-set-to-take-jay-lenos-10-oclock-thursday-slot.html) all 3,973 news articles » (http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&cf=all&ncl=dEL5641LQ7-3X4MT4QNxddH2_pOfM)

[grondramb]

I'm biased - I never like Conan's late show, Conan's Tonight show or Leno's 10 PM show but did enjoy Leno's Tonight Show.

So it sounds like I'm getting what I want but I also think its smart

Conan O'Brien could be off the air next week, Jay Leno may take 'Tonight Show' reins: reports


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2010/01/14/2010-01-14_conan_obrien_could_be_off_the_air_next_week_as_ .html#ixzz0cdePPWmF

[sonnik]

Are you sure they have to pay him if he has a contract with a non-compete to do the tonight show starting as late as 12:05 and he refuses to do the job he contracted for?

The contract doesn't specify starting time. I'm sure it can possibly come down to a court case of what "The Tonight Show" really means.

A court may say ... A contract is a contract. Sorry Mr. O'Brien, but your contract doesn't specify time of day. All NBC needs to do is offer you an opprotunity to host a show called "The Tonight Show".

Or, they may say ... While NBC may have, on surface, appeared to comply with the contract - they did not act in good faith. Referencing link (http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2010/01/contract-law-issues-in-the-conan-nbc-affair.html)...


Time Slot. NBC has publicly stated that the contract is silent concerning whether The Tonight Show must air at 11:30/35 p.m. Assuming that is true, it is unsurprising, though for two reasons that pose conflicting implications. On the one hand, it could be that such operational decisions must be left with the network to enable overall management of programming. That construction of silence as to time slot could give NBC the right to make this decision without breaching.

On the other hand, it could be that such contractual silence simply reflects what everyone knows: for 60 years, The Tonight Show always aired just after the local news. So there was no need to say anything in the contract about the starting time. That construction could mean the time slot shift would be a breach of contract. Even so, or if NBC?s contractual silence assertion is false, and the contract expressly contemplates the 11:35 slot, NBC could seek other contractual grounds to make the switch.

Good Faith. NBC?s rights to switch times could be governed by more general contract terms, express or implied. Performance under many contracts involves such intricate matters that it is cost-prohibitive to elaborate all rights and duties in all states of the world. As a result, many contain general promises of both parties to use reasonable, best or good faith efforts in performance. Even absent such clauses, it is standard contract law, originating in parallel exclusive dealing contracts, for law to imply such an obligation. Notably, Conan would be subject to corollary duties.

Application. Such good faith or reasonable efforts standards are Protean, deliberately broad, vague and open-textured. They depend on context and here the standard will invite contending positions. Conan credibly can argue that NBC has only allowed the show the traditional time slot for seven months and that it takes more time than that for a new host of such a venerable show to promote and sustain it.

...

In a famous potentially analogous case, from 1970, the actress Shirley McClain was entitled to full contract damages, not mitigated, when a movie studio breached her contract and offered a much worse alternative. The original contract promised her the lead in a musical, Bloomer Girl, to be shot in LA, and gave her director and screenplay approvals. The studio breached that contract and offered her instead the lead in a dramatic western, Big Country, to be shot in Australia and lacking actress approval rights.

The Supreme Court of California, recognizing the mitigation or avoidable loss doctrine, nevertheless limited it to alternative offers the breaching party affirmatively proves are ?comparable or substantially similar,? which it took to mean neither ?different nor inferior.? It held, over a vigorous dissent, that the Big Country alternative was both different and inferior to the Bloomer Girl deal. So McClain won full contract damages, unreduced by that alternative.

I don't think NBC would be willing to roll the dice on taking this to court. If I were NBC, I'd try to come out as less of an ass-hole operated network than we already have, cut Conan loose, and save some cash.

Prediction: "Both parties have come to an agreement with undisclosed financial terms in a move that would allow Conan to host a new talk show no earlier than _____ 2010."

[grondramb]

I know Bill Carter of the NY Time says he has seen the contract and that no starting time is specified and as nearly as I can tell all these analysis trace back to Carter.

But Zucker was quoted as "Conan hasn't agreed to anything yet, especially not to push back to 12:05 AM." NBC has the contractual right to start The Tonight Show as late as 12:05 AM, which the network sometimes does for sports or news.

Zucker ought to know what's in the Tonight Show agreement.

[Mikkel_Knight]

that's absurd... if they try and keep him off the air that long, it'll be as long if not longer for Jay to gain the top position in late night again... people will sure still like Jay, but I think more people will "side" with Conan than Jay...


O'Brien has been hemorrhaging viewers since he took over the Tonight Show.
In August of 2009, he'd lost over 40% of Leno's audience. (4.6 million vs. 2.6 million.)
Yeah, and Leno's ratings hit rock bottom and tanked when he took over for Carson... only Leno had the support of dramas/scripted television shows and also had at least 18 months to generate his audience...

Conan deals with a crappy 10pm lead-in on top of taking over for a host who's been on the air for almost 20 years...

again, I don't really like either one, but there's really no way to argue that NBC hasn't completely screwed the pooch on this one...

[grondramb]

You could really see the contrast last night - why a corporation would want to work with Leno and not with Conan.

Conan: There is a rumor that NBC is so upset with me they want to keep me off the air for 3 years. (Audience boos NBC at length) My response is that if NBC doesn't want anybody to see me, just leave me on NBC.

Leno: With all the controversy going on at NBC, actually the tonight show with Conan O'Brien's ratings have gone up. So - "You're welcome!"

[Agatha]

Leno's ratings have not gone up in comparison, only Conan's. Leno's ratings went up when something controversial happened (when he was on the Tonight show), so why is it wrong that the same thing is happening with Conan?

Besides, it's no surprise that Leno isn't bashing as much. He still gets his show, gets back on late night where he wanted to be, instead of a canceled show.

[grondramb]

Leno's ratings have not gone up in comparison, only Conan's. Leno's ratings went up when something controversial happened (when he was on the Tonight show), so why is it wrong that the same thing is happening with Conan?

Besides, it's no surprise that Leno isn't bashing as much. He still gets his show, gets back on late night where he wanted to be, instead of a canceled show.

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.

[InigoMontoya]

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.
True dat. But I suspect Conan getting TTS in the first place was a nod to demographics.... IE, Leno's following is getting ooooold. More to the point, apples to apples, today Leno wins. Do you think that would still be true in 5 years?

[grondramb]

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.
True dat. But I suspect Conan getting TTS in the first place was a nod to demographics.... IE, Leno's following is getting ooooold. More to the point, apples to apples, today Leno wins. Do you think that would still be true in 5 years?

I don't know what the cut off is but you are right that over time Jay's audience is aging. that said, our population is aging too so I don't know where the crossover will be.

I'm sure NBC wanted to keep both, in the beginning. But now its ugly.

Besides, in 5-10 years they may be better off with George Lopez.

[mbklein]

Anyone have a source for Tonight Show ratings going back to the beginning of Carson's reign?

[JYoung]

that's absurd... if they try and keep him off the air that long, it'll be as long if not longer for Jay to gain the top position in late night again... people will sure still like Jay, but I think more people will "side" with Conan than Jay...


O'Brien has been hemorrhaging viewers since he took over the Tonight Show.
In August of 2009, he'd lost over 40% of Leno's audience. (4.6 million vs. 2.6 million.)
Yeah, and Leno's ratings hit rock bottom and tanked when he took over for Carson... only Leno had the support of dramas/scripted television shows and also had at least 18 months to generate his audience...

Conan deals with a crappy 10pm lead-in on top of taking over for a host who's been on the air for almost 20 years...

again, I don't really like either one, but there's really no way to argue that NBC hasn't completely screwed the pooch on this one...


I said August of 2009. Before Leno's 10 PM show premiered. (http://www.cleveland.com/tv/index.ssf/2009/08/david_letterman_is_tops_in_lat.html).


With O'Brien, it has become a home for young viewers, and preciously few others. He's a particular hit among men up to age 34, and is winning among the 18-to-49-year-old demographic that NBC uses as the basis for its ad sales. Yet the show has lost 2 million viewers in a year: Jay Leno's "Tonight" averaged 4.6 million viewers each night during the last week of July 2008; a year later, O'Brien had 2.6 million.
Now at the time, O'Brien may have been winning in the 18 to 49 demographic but down 2 million viewers in a year is definitely a cause for concern as it's over 40% of your total audience.
I don't think Leno lost 40% of Carson's audience.
And it's not like O'Brien is a novice here either. He's been doing a talk show for 16 years now.

Besides, in 1992 things were a lot different. The only real competition was Letterman.
Who would they have replaced Leno with then?
Letterman was on CBS and Carson wasn't coming back.
Joan Rivers?
Alan Thicke?
Chevy Chase?
Arsenio Hall? Well maybe, except for the fact he boasted on how he was "going to kick Leno's ass in the ratings" and was cancelled in 1994. Obviously he had no staying power. And he never beat Leno's ratings.

Not that I don't believe that NBC fucked this up royally. They have.
I just see a lot of people blaming Leno for all of this and I don't really think it's his fault.

Also, I think it's supposed to be hip to bash Leno now.

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.
True dat. But I suspect Conan getting TTS in the first place was a nod to demographics.... IE, Leno's following is getting ooooold. More to the point, apples to apples, today Leno wins. Do you think that would still be true in 5 years?

Possibly not. The problem is that NBC hasn't been forward thinking for a number of years now, leading up to this fiasco.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I honestly think it was ridiculous for NBC to think that Leno would be willing to retire at 59.
Work wise, Leno probably has another 5-6 years in him no problem.

I agree that they should be grooming a replacement for Leno (which may or may not be O'Brien) but just to assume that a guy who is well known for how much he loves to work would be ready to retire at 59 doesn't seem to show a lot of forethought to me.

edited to add
Not that I don't think that O'Brien didn't get the shaft either. But I think that most of has to fall at the feet of the NBC executives.

[Mikkel_Knight]

absolutely - I don't think Conan or Leno is to blame at all... this falls all on TPTB @ NBC

[sonnik]

You can also argue that Conan was being hurt by Jay at 10pm. The local news was suffering, thus Conan would probably be penalized as well.

If "lead-ins" are important, as local stations claim they are, then I can imagine most people don't want to watch 120 minutes+ of talk/comedy every night. (This is also true as most of us here seem to favor one host or another to an absolute degree).

When Jay started Tonight, he wasn't competing against cable. He had a strong lead in with NBC dramas running at 10pm (Think E.R.). He (Leno) even then mostly lost to Dave until he snagged Hugh Grant.

Jay may be the nicer, more loyal guy to NBC - but "nice" doesn't really bring in the right advertising, in my opinion. Not long term for sure. Age is obviously an issue, so college kids, 20 somethings, and 30 somethings (with money to spend) are not going to tune into Jay (notably for his sense of humor) much longer if they are at all already.

NBCU has got to get away from this "good enough for now" mentality they are in. I contend they were losing more money than what was implied having Jay at 10pm; without that block for original programming - that's fewer NBCU shows that can be sold on DVD and into syndication.

[sonnik]

Now at the time, O'Brien may have been winning in the 18 to 49 demographic but down 2 million viewers in a year is definitely a cause for concern as it's over 40% of your total audience.

What year was that? The last year of Late Night with Conan?

That may be a testament to Craig; perhaps a signal that the 18-49s are just hungry for change at 11:35p on both networks.

I'm sure CBS is watching this very carefully as well, trying to figure out how to handle things way more gracefully than the way NBC does at some point in the future.

I used to love Dave, then got annoyed with the applause-fest it turned into. I used to prefer Leno at 11:35 for a while, but now after this - I think I'll prefer Dave at 11:35. I never really watched Craig before, but I may be willing to give him a chance. I don't think Fallon is terrible, but his sense of humor may be too young for my tastes.

[mbklein]

Jimmy Kimmel was savage last night when Leno had him on for the "10@10" segment.


[Asked by Leno what the best prank he ever pulled was] "The best prank I ever pulled was I told a guy that five years from now I'm gonna give you my show. And then when the five years came, I gave it to him, and then I took it back almost instantly."
[Asked by Leno if he ever orders anything off of the TV] "Like NBC ordered your show off the TV?"
[Asked by Leno what the record is for number of lap dances he's received in one night] "Strippers, I don't like in general. Because you have this phony relationship with them for money, similar to that of when you and Conan were onThe Tonight Show together, passing the torch... you know what I'm saying."
[Asked by Leno what he hasn't yet hosted, but would like to] "Oh, this is a trick, right? Where you get me to host The Tonight Show and then take it back from me?"
[Asked why he came on to do the segment] "Listen, Jay, Conan and I have children. All you have to take care of is cars. I mean, we have lives to lead here. You've got $800 million, for God's sakes, leave our shows alone."

I have no idea what Leno was expecting, but you could tell that he was entirely unprepared for those answers. Did he think Kimmel would shy away from bashing him on his own show?

Here's a link (http://www.hulu.com/watch/120783/the-jay-leno-show-thu-jan-14-2010?c=1795:2174) to the segment. Hulu will make you sit through a 6-second promo and a 15-second ad, and then jump straight to the part with Jimmy.

[grondramb]

I have no idea what Leno was expecting, but you could tell that he was entirely unprepared for those answers. Did he think Kimmel would shy away from bashing him on his own show?

Here's a link (http://www.hulu.com/watch/120783/the-jay-leno-show-thu-jan-14-2010?c=1795:2174) to the segment. Hulu will make you sit through a 6-second promo and a 15-second ad, and then jump straight to the part with Jimmy.

I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to have a talk show host from another network right now - not when everybody else on TV has something to gain from chaos at NBC

[TheDewAddict]

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.
True dat. But I suspect Conan getting TTS in the first place was a nod to demographics.... IE, Leno's following is getting ooooold. More to the point, apples to apples, today Leno wins. Do you think that would still be true in 5 years?

I don't know what the cut off is but you are right that over time Jay's audience is aging. that said, our population is aging too so I don't know where the crossover will be.

I'm sure NBC wanted to keep both, in the beginning. But now its ugly.

Besides, in 5-10 years they may be better off with George Lopez.

Except advertisers don't care about older folks. Sure, some products are geared towards them, but the majority of advertisers want the 18-40 demographic, where Conan does well.

[JYoung]

You can also argue that Conan was being hurt by Jay at 10pm. The local news was suffering, thus Conan would probably be penalized as well.

If "lead-ins" are important, as local stations claim they are, then I can imagine most people don't want to watch 120 minutes+ of talk/comedy every night. (This is also true as most of us here seem to favor one host or another to an absolute degree).

When Jay started Tonight, he wasn't competing against cable. He had a strong lead in with NBC dramas running at 10pm (Think E.R.). He (Leno) even then mostly lost to Dave until he snagged Hugh Grant.

Jay may be the nicer, more loyal guy to NBC - but "nice" doesn't really bring in the right advertising, in my opinion. Not long term for sure. Age is obviously an issue, so college kids, 20 somethings, and 30 somethings (with money to spend) are not going to tune into Jay (notably for his sense of humor) much longer if they are at all already.

NBCU has got to get away from this "good enough for now" mentality they are in. I contend they were losing more money than what was implied having Jay at 10pm; without that block for original programming - that's fewer NBCU shows that can be sold on DVD and into syndication.

Now at the time, O'Brien may have been winning in the 18 to 49 demographic but down 2 million viewers in a year is definitely a cause for concern as it's over 40% of your total audience.

What year was that? The last year of Late Night with Conan?


No, again these were the ratings for August of 2009 for the Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien.

Even before Leno's 10 PM show started, O'Brien's ratings were down over 40% from Leno's August 2008 ratings.

I definitely think that NBC needs to stop the short term mentality though.

Jimmy Kimmel was savage last night when Leno had him on for the "10@10" segment.


[Asked by Leno what the best prank he ever pulled was] "The best prank I ever pulled was I told a guy that five years from now I'm gonna give you my show. And then when the five years came, I gave it to him, and then I took it back almost instantly."
[Asked by Leno if he ever orders anything off of the TV] "Like NBC ordered your show off the TV?"
[Asked by Leno what the record is for number of lap dances he's received in one night] "Strippers, I don't like in general. Because you have this phony relationship with them for money, similar to that of when you and Conan were onThe Tonight Show together, passing the torch... you know what I'm saying."
[Asked by Leno what he hasn't yet hosted, but would like to] "Oh, this is a trick, right? Where you get me to host The Tonight Show and then take it back from me?"
[Asked why he came on to do the segment] "Listen, Jay, Conan and I have children. All you have to take care of is cars. I mean, we have lives to lead here. You've got $800 million, for God's sakes, leave our shows alone."

I have no idea what Leno was expecting, but you could tell that he was entirely unprepared for those answers. Did he think Kimmel would shy away from bashing him on his own show?

Here's a link (http://www.hulu.com/watch/120783/the-jay-leno-show-thu-jan-14-2010?c=1795:2174) to the segment. Hulu will make you sit through a 6-second promo and a 15-second ad, and then jump straight to the part with Jimmy.

Kimmel and Leno are friends (they share custody of Adam Carolla).
Kimmel often does that sort of thing to his friends.

[mbklein]

Oh, I know they're friends, and I know Kimmel doesn't hold back. Jay was clearly not expecting it, though.

[pgogborn]

From a business point of view... it would appear that Conan is forcing them to choose and, apples to apples, Leno has had better late night ratings.Although a key thing to remember about the way Jeff Zucker manages NBC - it is not about the ratings, it is about the margins.

[Agatha]

Apparently, NBC is going to give Conan $30 mil to walk away.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34886438/ns/entertainment-television/

[Mikkel_Knight]

No, again these were the ratings for August of 2009 for the Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien.

Even before Leno's 10 PM show started, O'Brien's ratings were down over 40% from Leno's August 2008 ratings.
Stop this thinking... to compare ratings, you need to look at what Carson was, then when Leno took over, and how long it too Leno to become respectable...

it was more than 18 months - in addition to that, Leno was supported by one of the highest rated drama's in TV as well as Must-See Thursday.

Conan got less than 7 months.

[murgatroyd]

If "lead-ins" are important, as local stations claim they are, then I can imagine most people don't want to watch 120 minutes+ of talk/comedy every night. (This is also true as most of us here seem to favor one host or another to an absolute degree).

Now at the time, O'Brien may have been winning in the 18 to 49 demographic but down 2 million viewers in a year is definitely a cause for concern as it's over 40% of your total audience.

What year was that? The last year of Late Night with Conan?

That may be a testament to Craig; perhaps a signal that the 18-49s are just hungry for change at 11:35p on both networks.

I'm sure CBS is watching this very carefully as well, trying to figure out how to handle things way more gracefully than the way NBC does at some point in the future.

I used to love Dave, then got annoyed with the applause-fest it turned into. I used to prefer Leno at 11:35 for a while, but now after this - I think I'll prefer Dave at 11:35. I never really watched Craig before, but I may be willing to give him a chance. I don't think Fallon is terrible, but his sense of humor may be too young for my tastes.

Well, I don't count for three reasons. One, I'm not male, two, I'm not in the age group the advertisers want, and three, I watch via TiVo. Given all that, however --

I used to watch Leno at 11:35. After Studio 60 went off the air, and I quit watching Heroes, Leno was the ONLY non-sports programming I was watching on NBC.

I have nothing against Dave or Conan -- they are both good at what they do -- but as you say, part of the equation is just one's own taste, and IMHO this isn't entirely a function of age. There have been times I watched Dave and really enjoyed the interview -- when Clinton was on, for instance. The Top 10 list, when good, can be really funny. Ditto for Conan -- it was fun when Tim Gunn was on and Conan was discussing his oddly-proportioned body.

And though I like Leno for the most part, there have been interviews where I want to reach through the TV and smack him upside the head.

Like you, I don't care to watch Dave's show all the way through because the lovefest -- ugh, it's sickening. Similarly, there are sketches where, if I could have banned them from Leno's version of TTS, I would have. Love Jaywalking, Battle of the Network All-Stars. Hate some of the other sketches.

When Jay left The Tonight Show, or maybe before, I started watching Craig. And I discovered, even though there are some sketches I hate, I like Craig. Craig is fun. Craig is goofy and silly at a time when I really need goofy and silly in my life, and his flavor of silly (mostly) appeals to me. And the serious stuff -- when Craig goes after current events -- he's not afraid to lay things out there and talk about stuff. It's refreshing -- despite the obvious repetition of jokes, the show doesn't feel canned the way that the other guys can do.

Since I have a TiVo, it's easy to skip the sketches I don't like, and I can wind down from my workday with Craig over dinner if I like, or as a lead-in to my late local news.

I haven't watched Conan's version of The Tonight Show (sorry, Conan) nor have I watched Jay's 10 PM show. Even though I'm time-shifting, I only have so much time in the schedule to watch talk/comedy, and Craig has won that timeslot for me.

How can you not like a show where, when you tune in at night, you don't know whether you're going to get this:

Ferguson Speaks from the Heart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bbaRyDLMvA)

or this:

Craig Ferguson: Oops, he did it again! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzRzmKbffKk)

Of all the late night hosts, Craig is the person I'd most want to actually invite into my living room.

Jan

[Fofer]

So well written, this is a worthy read.

Why Some Comics Aren't Laughing at Jay Leno (Essay) - Speakeasy - WSJ
(http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/01/15/why-some-comics-arent-laughing-at-jay-leno-essay/?mod=e2tw)

[grondramb]

So well written, this is a worthy read.

Why Some Comics Aren't Laughing at Jay Leno (Essay) - Speakeasy - WSJ
(http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/01/15/why-some-comics-arent-laughing-at-jay-leno-essay/?mod=e2tw)

Interesting...

He suffers from a terrible dearth of personal demons. Leno is so normal and functional that he’s practically a freak. That creeps out comedy writers who would rather have their heroes stagger into the gutter, penniless and filled with contempt for a world that has shunned them, than play yet another Indian casino to pay for that 32nd Maserati.




Bitterness is an almost universal trait among funny people. They hate it when their friends become successful. They grow positively apoplectic when success comes to someone they consider unworthy. The bigger the success, the bigger the resentment and Leno has attained a level of fame most comics can only dream about. Even more unforgivably, that success came at the expense of more worthy souls: first Letterman and now O’Brien.



I wonder if this has anything to do with why NBC would pay Conan off when it sounds like they don't really have to - they don't want to offend every other comic.

[JYoung]

No, again these were the ratings for August of 2009 for the Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien.

Even before Leno's 10 PM show started, O'Brien's ratings were down over 40% from Leno's August 2008 ratings.
Stop this thinking... to compare ratings, you need to look at what Carson was, then when Leno took over, and how long it too Leno to become respectable...

it was more than 18 months - in addition to that, Leno was supported by one of the highest rated drama's in TV as well as Must-See Thursday.

Conan got less than 7 months.

I don't think that Leno lost 40% of Carson's audience to begin with.
And I've already pointed out how different things were in 1992 and how there may not have been a viable replacement for Leno.

The point is, you can't blame Leno's weak lead in for O'Brien's lower ratings. They were already at that point before Leno's show began airing.
Now did they play a factor in why O'Brien's ratings didn't grow?
Perhaps.
But based on O'Brien's previous 3 month performance, you have no basis to say that they would have grown with a better lead in.
You can speculate that they would have but so far, I've seen nothing to indicate that they would have without the current fiasco.

And it's not like I think that NBC handled this well, this was handled piss poorly from 2004 on. Zucker and company have been particularly stupid in this whole fiasco which is chock full of short term thinking and bereft of any good long term planning.

I've already stated that I feel that O'Brien is getting shafted here.
IMO, they should have left him in longer and given Leno 3-5 hours between Friday and Saturday nights instead of the 10 PM slot five nights a week if they were bound and determined to keep both.
But they're not listening to me.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not particularly a fan of either gentlemen (although I briefly met Leno once, he seemed like a nice enough guy).
I rarely watch either show so I have no dog in this fight.

I'm glad that we may be getting back some of the programing we lost we they started this boneheaded move to begin with.

[JYoung]

So well written, this is a worthy read.

Why Some Comics Aren't Laughing at Jay Leno (Essay) - Speakeasy - WSJ
(http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/01/15/why-some-comics-arent-laughing-at-jay-leno-essay/?mod=e2tw)

Very interesting read.

But I think that Rabin is making two mistakes in his analysis.

1. That Leno is dragging down O'Brien. There's been no concrete evidence that this is the case. And as Rabin points out himself, he is already biased against Leno.

2. He overestimates the power of "Team Coco". While I get why Rabin and people like him prefer O'Brien, if "Team Coco" had any real power to affect the ratings, O'Brien wouldn't be in this mess to begin with as his ratings would have been already good enough to make this moot.

[grondramb]

Conan O'Brien, NBC Settlement -- No Trash Talk



Conan O'Brien can get a whole lot of money from NBC as a parting gift, but there will be strings attached -- not the least of which ... Conan cannot trash the network.

Sources tell us NBC wants a liquidated damages clause if Conan says anything disparaging about the network once he leaves. Essentially that means there is a clause in the contract that says Conan will automatically pay a predetermined amount of money if he says bad things about NBC.

And, as we have previously reported, NBC will demand that Conan not take another hosting job for a certain period of time.

Sources say NBC will be paying Conan a hefty sum, but that will be offset by any amount Conan makes for his next hosting gig. So if Conan makes a deal with FOX, NBC can reduce the amount it pays Conan by the amount FOX forks over.
Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/16/conan-obrien-nbc-settlement-tonight-show-jay-leno/#ixzz0coxj6MOa

[Snowman]

I very distinctly remember when Leno took over for Johnny Carson. I remember many people feeling that he "pushed" Johnny out. I wasn't a fan of late night television at the time, so I didn't really care one way or the other. I have; however, always felt that Leno was over-rated. I remember some prime time special he did where he smashed the windows of vehicles because they had a "baby on board" sign and he "was concerned that the baby was possibly trapped inside".

However, when it comes down to it, IMHO, Leno is better than anything else NBC has. I'm not a fan of Conan (AT ALL), so I can't comment on how he's done as host of the tonight show. Carson Daily has never held my interest long enough that I could even pick him out of a crowd. Jimmy Fallon lost me on Saturday Night Live. I hold a stronger disdain for him than I do for Will Farrell, and I would pay for seats to watch Will Farrell burn in hell. I'm sure the writers for SNL share at least some of the blame for how I feel about Farrell and Fallon, but the fact is, they both suck.

[Mikkel_Knight]

The point is, you can't blame Leno's weak lead in for O'Brien's lower ratings. They were already at that point before Leno's show began airing.
Now did they play a factor in why O'Brien's ratings didn't grow?
Perhaps.
But based on O'Brien's previous 3 month performance, you have no basis to say that they would have grown with a better lead in.
You can speculate that they would have but so far, I've seen nothing to indicate that they would have without the current fiasco.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then because when Leno started, he had 18 months of down-the-shitter ratings before he snagged the right guest at the right time... The only reason Hugh Grant was a snag was because of his transgressions right before his appearance... Leno didn't "get the scoop", Grant was already slated to appear, and unlike Eddy Murphy, actually decided to fill his engagement and show up on the show.

I think the ratings were low because it was going into the summer time... then, when the fall season started again, there was no reason to watch NBC other than to see what would be different on Leno and it wasn't anything different, in fact, it was actually quite worse than his gig as host of the Tonight Show. So, while Leno had Friends and ER to help build his audience, Conan was dealing with as a lead in to his show every single night of the week a horrible program.

So, take away the summer months and Conan was really only given 14-16 weeks to run the show.

Once again, I'm no fan of either show, but I still feel as if you're giving the short shrift to Conan's lead-in.

[JYoung]

The point is, you can't blame Leno's weak lead in for O'Brien's lower ratings. They were already at that point before Leno's show began airing.
Now did they play a factor in why O'Brien's ratings didn't grow?
Perhaps.
But based on O'Brien's previous 3 month performance, you have no basis to say that they would have grown with a better lead in.
You can speculate that they would have but so far, I've seen nothing to indicate that they would have without the current fiasco.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then because when Leno started, he had 18 months of down-the-shitter ratings before he snagged the right guest at the right time... The only reason Hugh Grant was a snag was because of his transgressions right before his appearance... Leno didn't "get the scoop", Grant was already slated to appear, and unlike Eddy Murphy, actually decided to fill his engagement and show up on the show.

I think the ratings were low because it was going into the summer time... then, when the fall season started again, there was no reason to watch NBC other than to see what would be different on Leno and it wasn't anything different, in fact, it was actually quite worse than his gig as host of the Tonight Show. So, while Leno had Friends and ER to help build his audience, Conan was dealing with as a lead in to his show every single night of the week a horrible program.

So, take away the summer months and Conan was really only given 14-16 weeks to run the show.

Once again, I'm no fan of either show, but I still feel as if you're giving the short shrift to Conan's lead-in.

Again, the comparison in the article I linked to was O'Brien's August 2009 to Leno's August 2008 ratings.
So they had similar lead ins. Reruns and Summer fill in fare. So I think I'm reasonably comparing apples to apples here.

And while the Hugh Grant surge is what allowed Leno to start beating Letterman, people stayed with show after that for 15 years.

Now I grant that if O'Brien were to stay on the air, the same thing may happen for him as well in the current spike.
But NBC has decided to go with the guy who already showed he can beat Letterman consistently as opposed to someone who hasn't.
From that perspective, I can see the rationale behind the decision.

I'm aware that the Comedy Cognoscenti endorses O'Brien. But to use the Turtleboy vernacular, Jay Leno is the Olive Garden of comedians.
:D

[grondramb]

How much cash? http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/conan-obrien-thumbs-up.jpg"Zucker's NBC spin puts it at $25 million. But it's a lot closer to $40 million than $25 million," my insider says.

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/

[mbklein]

From The New York Times, December 23, 1992 (http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/23/arts/jay-leno-criticizes-nbc-on-tonight-cliffhanger.html?pagewanted=1)
"I am disappointed," Mr. Leno said. "I feel like a guy who has bought a car from somebody, painted it, fixed it up and made it look nice and then the guy comes back and says he promised to sell the car to his brother-in-law."

Go Elsewhere? 'Of Course'

Mr. Leno said he would "obviously leave NBC immediately" if the network decided to give the "Tonight" show to Mr. Letterman. He said he would absolutely refuse to do a show in the 12:30 A.M. spot now occupied by Mr. Letterman's show, "Late Night," and would indeed consider creating the same problem for NBC that Mr. Letterman's proposed deal with CBS caused.

"Would I go to CBS if they asked me?" Mr. Leno said. "Of course. I'm not going to do some little happy hour from Omaha at 12:30."

The article also addresses some of the early ratings/administrative turmoil during Jay's period as interim host.

[murgatroyd]

I'm aware that the Comedy Cognoscenti endorses O'Brien. But to use the Turtleboy vernacular, Jay Leno is the Olive Garden of comedians.
:D

I was watching The Tonight Show one night, BT (Before TiVo).

Jay's two guests were

Emma Thompson
John Waters

Emma and John started riffing off each other. I can't remember now what they did, only that it was tremendously funny, and that Leno was hopelessly outclassed. :2funny:

It was one of the times I really, really wished I had a way to record what I had already seen on TV -- one of the memories which made my TiVo's trick play of hitting record and capturing the buffer seem like magic. If only I had a TiVo then -- that was a 'save until I delete' moment for sure.

Jan

[pgogborn]

TMZ have got hold of what appears to be an internal NBC memoBen and Marc --

Here's a way to solve your Jay Leno problem, improve your daytime ratings, save untold development costs and make a gazillion dollars at the same time.

Staring in 2009, strip Jay Leno at 10 o'clock, Monday thru Friday. It should be good for a 4 to 5 demo rating - for a fraction of what you are currently spending. What's more you'll be providing twice as much original programming on an annual basis.

This would provide a bold new business and creative model -- something that network television desperately needs as this time.

It would also make Jay Leno the highest paid star in the history of television -- and a couple of real trailblazers out of you guys.

Just a thought...

Best,
Fred
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0117_NBC_email.pdf

When the cunning plan went tits up it was cheaper to dump and pay off Conan than to dump and pay off the highest paid star in the history of television.

[pgogborn]

TIME September 14, 2009.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Leno-Time-Cover.jpg
(or not)


Knowing what we now know the article could be extra interesting.
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1920038-1,00.html

[sonnik]

So well written, this is a worthy read.

Why Some Comics Aren't Laughing at Jay Leno (Essay) - Speakeasy - WSJ
(http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/01/15/why-some-comics-arent-laughing-at-jay-leno-essay/?mod=e2tw)

A very good read. Very accurate, and I pretty much agree with the author's take on the facts. He seems to be the same age as me, as I remember looking forward to Johnny's guest hosts also. Nothing against Johnny, I just thought it was always cool to see someone else having a chance at the desk.

However, I disagree about lack of personal demons for Jay. If you recall Carter's book - Jay was very worried that his personal appearance would keep him from success. He was very paranoid about his role and future success, almost to a fault.

Jay was forced to fire Helen Kushnick at the behest of NBC. The book pictured him as troubled at this fact, as he had felt a loyalty towards her. (On a related note, I'm not sure if this represents Jay's past ability at throwing people under the bus for his own success ... or perhaps it's representative of what any of us would have done in that situation).

But I do agree, that somewhere along the line - Jay started annoying me because of his success. He's good as a rapid-fire joke machine, but the jokes were always mediocre, in my opinion.

I also like the point of Jay's schtick of mocking average folk ... I realize there are a lot of people out there who don't care if they don't live up to their full mental ability, but I think making these people the forefront of your comedic arsenal is lazy.

[Skanter]

I very distinctly remember when Leno took over for Johnny Carson. I remember many people feeling that he "pushed" Johnny out. I wasn't a fan of late night television at the time, so I didn't really care one way or the other. I have; however, always felt that Leno was over-rated. I remember some prime time special he did where he smashed the windows of vehicles because they had a "baby on board" sign and he "was concerned that the baby was possibly trapped inside".

However, when it comes down to it, IMHO, Leno is better than anything else NBC has. I'm not a fan of Conan (AT ALL), so I can't comment on how he's done as host of the tonight show. Carson Daily has never held my interest long enough that I could even pick him out of a crowd. Jimmy Fallon lost me on Saturday Night Live. I hold a stronger disdain for him than I do for Will Farrell, and I would pay for seats to watch Will Farrell burn in hell. I'm sure the writers for SNL share at least some of the blame for how I feel about Farrell and Fallon, but the fact is, they both suck.

IMO, these are all mediocre talents and watching them is a waste of time. But that goes for about 95% of what's on television these days. Thank goodness for DVRs so one can catch the 5% that's worthwhile.

[mbklein]

Speaking of Helen Kushnick, I wonder if HBO plans to start rerunning The Late Shift. ;)

[JYoung]

Speaking of Helen Kushnick, I wonder if HBO plans to start rerunning The Late Shift. ;)

I did go check Amazon about the book the other day and it appears that it's been out of print for a while.

Perhaps the publisher is considering another run?

[JYoung]

I've considered Hollywood writer, Mark Evanier a smart guy in the past and now he weighs in on the debate (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

One interesting point:

Later, after Carson was out and Leno was in for a while, there was another big decision to be made. David Letterman wanted The Tonight Show and threatened to leave NBC if they didn't shove Jay aside and turn it over. The network actually made a kind of half-assed decision to do that but Dave didn't accept their terms and instead went to CBS. Was it a mistake for them to not kick Leno out then, even though his ratings were quite decent, and bring in Dave? I don't think so. Imagine this scenario: They boot Jay and that leads to a situation not unlike what we're currently seeing with Conan, with people rallying behind a guy who seems to have been unfairly fired, just because someone else wants to be the star of The Tonight Show.

[farleyruskz]

I've considered Hollywood writer, Mark Evanier a smart guy in the past and now he weighs in on the debate (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

:up: That was a good read.

[Mysteryman]

I've considered Hollywood writer, Mark Evanier a smart guy in the past and now he weighs in on the debate (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

One interesting point:

Later, after Carson was out and Leno was in for a while, there was another big decision to be made. David Letterman wanted The Tonight Show and threatened to leave NBC if they didn't shove Jay aside and turn it over. The network actually made a kind of half-assed decision to do that but Dave didn't accept their terms and instead went to CBS. Was it a mistake for them to not kick Leno out then, even though his ratings were quite decent, and bring in Dave? I don't think so. Imagine this scenario: They boot Jay and that leads to a situation not unlike what we're currently seeing with Conan, with people rallying behind a guy who seems to have been unfairly fired, just because someone else wants to be the star of The Tonight Show.


Is this the same Mark Evanier that did the writing for the comic book "Groo: The Wanderer"? I loved that book. :)

[trainman]

Is this the same Mark Evanier that did the writing for the comic book "Groo: The Wanderer"? I loved that book. :)

One and the same. I highly recommend his blog to anyone with any interest in comic books, animation, TV, and/or movies.

[JYoung]

I've considered Hollywood writer, Mark Evanier a smart guy in the past and now he weighs in on the debate (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

One interesting point:

Later, after Carson was out and Leno was in for a while, there was another big decision to be made. David Letterman wanted The Tonight Show and threatened to leave NBC if they didn't shove Jay aside and turn it over. The network actually made a kind of half-assed decision to do that but Dave didn't accept their terms and instead went to CBS. Was it a mistake for them to not kick Leno out then, even though his ratings were quite decent, and bring in Dave? I don't think so. Imagine this scenario: They boot Jay and that leads to a situation not unlike what we're currently seeing with Conan, with people rallying behind a guy who seems to have been unfairly fired, just because someone else wants to be the star of The Tonight Show.


Is this the same Mark Evanier that did the writing for the comic book "Groo: The Wanderer"? I loved that book. :)

Yes.
And I'm still waiting for an animated Groo the Wanderer.

[mbklein]

Mark Evanier is awesome. I read him a lot, learn a lot from him, and rarely find anything to disagree with.

[grondramb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxcAAb60lik&feature=popt18us05

Howard Stern warns Conan about Leno - Dec. 14, 2006

[grondramb]

Signs point to Friday farewell for Conan O'Brien

http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/signs-point-to-friday-279428.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

In the late-night tradition of a star-studded goodbye, O'Brien's guests Thursdayinclude such big names as Robin Williams and Barry Manilow. Tom Hanks was scheduled for Friday, as was Will Ferrell ? the first guest O'Brien welcomed when he started last June as "Tonight" host.


And then there was this joke from his monologue Tuesday: "Hi, I'm Conan O'Brien, and I'm just three days away from the biggest drinking binge in history."


Guess I've got to record the tonight show.

[JYoung]

When's Leno's last new 10 PM show?

[grondramb]

When's Leno's last new 10 PM show?

Originally he was supposed to do new shows up til the Winter Olympics (Feb 10th or 14th or something ) but now with Conan going into re-runs and all the hype, I don't know and have not seen announcement.

Apparently they are letting go 300 tonight show staff and frankly Leno's 10pm show hasn't been as good as his old tonight shows so I'd guess they want to do some re-tooling.

I'm guessing they won't rush his transition back to the tonight show but try to get him up and running by the end of the Olympics - its not like they can afford to screw this up.

[grondramb]

BTW, it continues to be nastier than usual on late night.

Now It's Personal: Jay Leno Jokes About Dave Letterman's Marriage (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_2_aa&usg=AFQjCNFA7PeyhScJn59BcUPdwZ9-6m3BSg&cid=8797487955467&ei=x3ZYS9PYO5Kc8ASPtMmGAQ&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popeater.com%2F2010%2F01%2F21 %2Fjay-leno-letterman-marriage-joke%2F) PopEater

Jay Leno Vs David Letterman: It Gets Personal (http://www.okmagazine.com/2010/01/jay-leno-vs-david-letterman-it-gets-personal/) OK! Magazine
Rosie O'Donnell Snaps: Jay Leno is a "Bully" Who Can't "Let Go" (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_1_0_t&usg=AFQjCNEO5tYdHGJhol9YDZNY_uXkft8T6A&cid=8797488694261&ei=x3ZYS9PYO5Kc8ASPtMmGAQ&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usmagazine.com%2Fcelebritynew s%2Fnews%2Frosie-odonnell-jay-leno-is-a-bully-who-doesnt-want-to-let-go-2010201)


Mariska Hargitay Blames NBC and Jay Leno Show for Lower SVU Ratings (http://www.seattlepi.com/tvguide/414405_tvgif19.html) Seattle Post Intelligencer

Mariska Hargitay: Leno's Show Ruined Our Ratings (http://www.parade.com/celebrity/hollywood-wire/2010/01/19/mariska-hargitay-jay-leno.html) Parade Magazine








From Leno's monologue last night (http://www.allyourtv.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=768:leno-you-know-the-best-way-to-get-letterman-to-ignore-you-marry-him&catid=1:latest-news)


JAMES CAMERON IS ON THE SHOW TONIGHT. HE HAS ANNOUNCED PLANS FOR AN AVATAR SEQUEL. THIS ONE WILL BE SET 126 YEARS IN THE FUTURE. ABOUT THE SAME TIME NBC FIGURES OUT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO WITH LATE NIGHT


LETTERMAN HAS BEEN HAMMERING ME EVERY NIGHT. GOING AFTER ME… HEY KEV, YOU KNOW THE BEST WAY TO GET LETTERMAN TO IGNORE YOU? MARRY HIM. HE WILL NOT BOTHER YOU. HE WON’T LOOK YOU IN THE EYE… HERE WE GO…GET THE RIDE GOING.

[grondramb]

Oh, and this article has some good video clips in it

The late-night host packed plenty of bests into seven short months


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34882511/ns/entertainment-television/

Since its an NBC page they are not likely to vanish like some other lists floating around.

This is my favorite
Shatner vs. Palin
In December, dueling dramatic readings made for one the most memorable bits on any version of “The Tonight Show.” First, Hollywood ham William Shatner took a hilarious and straight-faced turn at odd excerpts from Sarah Palin’s “Going Rogue.” But it wasn’t long before he was matched, if not upstaged, by the former Alaskan governor’s own rendition of Shatner’s longwinded autobiography, “Up Till Now.


Here is a link just to that video but it comes with a 13 second commercial.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/114848/the-tonight-show-with-conan-obrien-shatner-gets-served-by-palin

[Mikkel_Knight]

so Conan is just burning down the house now that he's done tomorrow? (referring to his mouse car Rolling Stones "skit")

Classy and mature.

[Fofer]

Dave Letterman Mauls Jay Leno, NBC; 'Don't Blame Conan!' He Pleads (http://www.popeater.com/2010/01/20/dave-letterman-jay-leno-dont-blame-conan/)

These two clips are great. Especially the second one where Letterman runs a fake commercial for the new 'Tonight Show.'

[mbklein]

Lonnie Donegan?

[JYoung]

Dave Letterman Mauls Jay Leno, NBC; 'Don't Blame Conan!' He Pleads (http://www.popeater.com/2010/01/20/dave-letterman-jay-leno-dont-blame-conan/)

These two clips are great. Especially the second one where Letterman runs a fake commercial for the new 'Tonight Show.'

Letterman is funny but man, is he bitter or what?


Lonnie Donegan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Donegan

50's "Skiffle music king" in the UK.

Interesting poll at the Popeater link:

Who do you blame the most for the NBC mess?
NBC 75%
Jay 22%
Conan 3%

[Fofer]

Letterman's funniest when he's bitter.

What an interesting, ironic coda to the "Late Shift" brouhaha this could be... if all of these 2010 NBC shenanigans leads to him finally being the leader of the pack. :D

[Fofer]

Conan O'Brien introduced the Bugatti Veyron Mouse as a new Tonight Show character Thursday night, not because it was funny, but because it was "crazy expensive" for NBC.

The beginning part is funny too... especially if you've seen Leno's "last" Tonight Show episode, where he showed all the kids that were born during the production years.

http://jalopnik.com/5453417/conan-obriens-15-million-bugatti-veyron-mouse

[grondramb]

Kimmel sounds off on ‘sucker-punching’ Leno

In wake of Oprah chat, comedian hands returning ‘Tonight’ host another KO



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35144608/ns/entertainment-television/

[grondramb]

Kevin Eubanks Saying Goodbye to Jay Leno?



http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/etonline-headlines/kevin-eubanks-saying-goodbye-308441.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

By itself, no big deal but I've got to wonder if its a sign the backlash against Leno may be large enough to cause his people to look for exit strategies.

[grondramb]

So Leno is back on the Tonight Show so far so good but I don't know if its going to work. He either sound nervous last night or did a good job of faking it.

His first monologue is here

http://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/clips/monologue-31/1205728/

Edit: USA Today had a really negative take

'Tonight' picks up where 'Jay Leno' left off

Or refuses to leave, depending on how happy you are to have Jay Leno (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Celebrities/Comedians/Jay+Leno) back as host of NBC (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Publishers,+Media,+Music/NBC)'s The Tonight Show (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Culture/Television/Programming/The+Tonight+Show).
Whether Leno is happy as well is hard to judge; all that's clear is he's not particularly straining to keep the job now that he has it again. Monday's opening monologue, supposedly Leno's strong suit, was tired, lame and unfunny. In other words, typical of the real Leno, rather than the Leno of public-relations imagination.





http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/reviews/2010-03-02-leno-review_N.htm

[5thcrewman]

Now Leno has to rely on Fallon to drag viewers through 11:35-12:35.

The suckage is now complete.

At least the affiliates can try rebuilding their 11pm newscast ratings.

[grondramb]

Now Leno has to rely on Fallon to drag viewers through 11:35-12:35.

The suckage is now complete.


I don't quite understand that - Leno is back on at 11:30

[5thcrewman]

Now Leno has to rely on Fallon to drag viewers through 11:35-12:35.

The suckage is now complete.


I don't quite understand that - Leno is back on at 11:30


When Conan was doing Late Night, he was the only reason I kept NBC after the 11pm news.

[JYoung]

For his first two nights back, Leno pummeled Letterman ratings wise and Nightline is nipping at Letterman's heels.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/02/leno-crushes-letterman-in-return/43507

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/03/leno-with-palin-beats-letterman-badly-again-on-night-two/43706

We'll have to see if these numbers hold though.
I would expect to see some drop off over the next couple of weeks.

[busyba]

For his first two nights back, Leno pummeled Letterman ratings wise and Nightline is nipping at Letterman's heels.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/02/leno-crushes-letterman-in-return/43507

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/03/leno-with-palin-beats-letterman-badly-again-on-night-two/43706

We'll have to see if these numbers hold though.
I would expect to see some drop off over the next couple of weeks.

It's probably just a trainwreck-spike. Gotta see what the ratings are over several months before you can really say what's up.

[Gordo]

The numbers dropped a bit last night...I'm sure they will be in freefall before too long.

Jay'a show is WAY past it's prime.

[keirgrey]

So full of hate.

[InigoMontoya]

So full of hate.
Who? Gordo or Leno?

[mbklein]

Lengordo.

[5thcrewman]

Lengordo.
Lonnie Donegan?
I'll take a D, N, L, G and an O


Donal Logue?

[keirgrey]

So full of hate.
Who? Gordo or Leno?Gordo, I was mocking something he said at the main forum about us.

[grondramb]

So full of hate.
Who? Gordo or Leno?Gordo, I was mocking something he said at the main forum about us.

Are they allowed to talk about us again?

[keirgrey]

No, he said it here.

EDIT:

Yep...this place is one f'd up place for sure!

Not to mention pretty darn hate filled at that...wow!

[grondramb]

Aha.

[JYoung]

For his first two nights back, Leno pummeled Letterman ratings wise and Nightline is nipping at Letterman's heels.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/02/leno-crushes-letterman-in-return/43507

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/03/leno-with-palin-beats-letterman-badly-again-on-night-two/43706

We'll have to see if these numbers hold though.
I would expect to see some drop off over the next couple of weeks.

It's probably just a trainwreck-spike. Gotta see what the ratings are over several months before you can really say what's up.


I dunno, it only took a few weeks for O'Brien's ratings to tank.

[terpfan1980]

No, he said it here.

EDIT:

Yep...this place is one f'd up place for sure!

Not to mention pretty darn hate filled at that...wow!

Who said what where?


(or... if someone on the Ignore list says something does it ever really happen at all? )

[Gordo]

No, he said it here.

EDIT:

Yep...this place is one f'd up place for sure!

Not to mention pretty darn hate filled at that...wow!

Who said what where?


(or... if someone on the Ignore list says something does it ever really happen at all? )


Oh hey! Hi Terpfan!! :coolsmiley:

[Fofer]

He can't see your words, Gordo. As he wrote, he's ignoring you.

[Gordo]

He can't see your words, Gordo. As he wrote, he's ignoring you.

Ahhhh...poor little man is missin' out!

[Fofer]

Not really, not so much. It's all pretty much predictable at this point.

:)

[JYoung]

Leno again beat Letterman last night but had quite a drop off (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/leno-beats-letterman-again-on-monday-but-the-gap-narrowed-significantly/44346).


?The Tonight Show with Jay Leno? (3.5/9 in metered-market households) led the time period over CBS?s ?Late Show with David Letterman? (3.2/8) and ABC?s ?Nightline (3.1/8) and ?Jimmy Kimmel Live? (1.5/5) in Nielsen?s 56 metered markets.
Of course the Law & Order lead in didn't help as both L&O and Trauma were absolutely pummeled by the Big Bang Theory and CSI: Miami, scoring lower than Leno's 10 PM show (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/tv-ratings-chuck-drops-a-touch-two-and-a-half-men-hits-highs-nbc-dead-last/44300) at a 1.5/4 and 1.4/3 respectively.

[Gordo]

Leno again beat Letterman last night but had quite a drop off (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/leno-beats-letterman-again-on-monday-but-the-gap-narrowed-significantly/44346).


?The Tonight Show with Jay Leno? (3.5/9 in metered-market households) led the time period over CBS?s ?Late Show with David Letterman? (3.2/8) and ABC?s ?Nightline (3.1/8) and ?Jimmy Kimmel Live? (1.5/5) in Nielsen?s 56 metered markets.
Of course the Law & Order lead in didn't help as both L&O and Trauma were absolutely pummeled by the Big Bang Theory and CSI: Miami, scoring lower than Leno's 10 PM show (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/tv-ratings-chuck-drops-a-touch-two-and-a-half-men-hits-highs-nbc-dead-last/44300) at a 1.5/4 and 1.4/3 respectively.


Not remotely surprised...the newness of his revolving door changes has worn thin and viewers are tiring of him once again.

He'll probably float right around what Letterman gets for some time with several dips lower and maybe a handful higher.

[Gordo]

Not really, not so much. It's all pretty much predictable at this point.

:)


At least I'm enjoying the ride....!

:)

[Fofer]

Of course you are. That's the primary motivation for most griefers, trolls, threadcrappers and other social misfits.

[mbklein]

Of course you are. That's the primary motivation for most griefers, trolls, threadcrappers and other social misfits.

OK, Fof, time to put away the Purina Troll Chow. ;)

[Mikkel_Knight]

Of course you are. That's the primary motivation for most griefers, trolls, threadcrappers and other social misfits.

OK, Fof, time to put away the Purina Troll Chow. ;)

I found it quite amusing :coolsmiley:

[smak]

Leno again beat Letterman last night but had quite a drop off (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/leno-beats-letterman-again-on-monday-but-the-gap-narrowed-significantly/44346).


?The Tonight Show with Jay Leno? (3.5/9 in metered-market households) led the time period over CBS?s ?Late Show with David Letterman? (3.2/8) and ABC?s ?Nightline (3.1/8) and ?Jimmy Kimmel Live? (1.5/5) in Nielsen?s 56 metered markets.
Of course the Law & Order lead in didn't help as both L&O and Trauma were absolutely pummeled by the Big Bang Theory and CSI: Miami, scoring lower than Leno's 10 PM show (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/09/tv-ratings-chuck-drops-a-touch-two-and-a-half-men-hits-highs-nbc-dead-last/44300) at a 1.5/4 and 1.4/3 respectively.

That's another side effect not much talked about. Getting people more hooked on the 10pm shows on other channels, which obviously hurts when the 10pm Leno show came to it's obvious quick demise.

-smak-

[smak]

Letterman actually beat Leno in 18-49 last night, and was only behind 200,000 in total viewers.

Kind ironic that Leno wiping out the 10pm shows actually hurts Leno back at 11:30.

-smak-

[Fofer]

Yeah, kinda funny how that happens. It'd be great if episode ends up keeping Letterman on top for awhile.


The only thing Karma needs now is for Conan to do 11:30 at Fox, and eventually come to beat them both.

[JYoung]

Letterman actually beat Leno in 18-49 last night, and was only behind 200,000 in total viewers.

Kind ironic that Leno wiping out the 10pm shows actually hurts Leno back at 11:30.

-smak-

Letterman beat Leno Tuesday night so things are getting very interesting (or Leno is tanking harder than I thought he would).
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/10/early-tuesday-results-indicate-split-decision-for-leno-and-letterman/44509

The 10 PM numbers still aren't good for NBC (in fact, there seems to be quite a viewer drop off at 10 PM in general).
I suspect that the only reason Parenthood did as well as it did is because everyone else forgot about the Forgotten.

You may very well be right in that NBC has totally decimated the 10 PM slot with this.




Yeah, kinda funny how that happens. It'd be great if episode ends up keeping Letterman on top for awhile.


The only thing Karma needs now is for Conan to do 11:30 at Fox, and eventually come to beat them both.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that the trend will be that the lead will be split between Letterman and Leno for the next two years until Letterman retires.

O'Brien won't matter until then because he may not get that Fox show.

After that, it will be anyone's game.

[smak]

I think Leno's so-so ratings may get FOX to go after Conan harder.

Late night has so much potential profit, you don't need huge ratings to make good money.

Plus 1/2 the show would be up against local news. I wonder if you try to schedule the show so the biggest guest of each night comes on around 11:32 and goes right into the start of the other 2 shows.

-smak-

[JYoung]

Leno narrowly beat Letterman last night (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/11/in-early-numbers-leno-beats-letterman-again-on-wednesday/44622).

And Law & Order: SVU scored better numbers than the other NBC 10 PM shows this week (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/11/tv-ratings-american-idol-down-but-still-dominate-modern-family-rebounds-human-target-still-on-the-bubble/44606).

[JYoung]

And now Letterman and Leno are in a dead heat (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/12/in-early-thursday-numbers-leno-ties-letterman-in-households-wins-in-adults-18-49/44748).

[JYoung]

Leno won on Friday night with a decent margin. (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/13/in-preliminary-friday-numbers-leno-held-wide-lead-over-letterman/44831)

Letterman came in third after Nightline.

[Snowman]

Of course you are. That's the primary motivation for most griefers, trolls, threadcrappers and other social misfits.

Fofer, on an internet message board, belittling "social mistfits". REALLY? I suppose it's time for me to start picking on fat people.

[JYoung]

Leno beat Letterman again on Monday (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/16/in-preliminary-monday-numbers-leno-topped-letterman-again/45139).

[JYoung]

Leno won again on Tuesday night (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/17/leno-wins-again-in-tuesday-preliminary-numbers/45301).

[JYoung]

Leno wins again on Wednesday (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/18/leno-leads-letterman-by-wide-margins-in-wednesday-night-preliminary-numbers/45390).

[pgogborn]

Different people interpreting and reporting the same statistics in different ways - but I doubt NBC is getting the expected bang for the Leno bucks.

Huffington Post
First Posted: 07- 1-10 03:27 PM | Updated: 07- 1-10 04:32 PM

Jay Leno may have returned to his old post at "The Tonight Show," but his ratings haven't necessarily come back with him >
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/01/jay-lenos-tonight-show-ra_n_632726.html

Fox News
Published July 02, 2010 | NewsCore

Jay Leno's Future in Jeopardy As Ratings Dip Below Conan O'Brien's on 'Tonight Show' >
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/07/02/jay-lenos-future-jeopardy-ratings-dip-conan-obriens-tonight/

[ruidh]

Karma is a bitch.

[Fofer]

Yeah. I'd like to see Conan get invited back to NBC now. :D

[JYoung]

TV By the Numbers has the handy dandy comparison charts (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/07/01/leno-still-below-conans-tonight-show-ratings-could-they-be-tied-next-week/55937).


I expected Leno to tank some and level out 1.2-1.3 (he was previously getting a 1.4 to 1.6 in the 11:30 slot).

The fact that he's fluctuating between 1.0 and 1.1 (although he dropped to 0.9 in the first bit of Summer Vacation) is a tad surprising but he hasn't hit the low of 0.8 that O'Brien did when he was trending down. And he'll probably be low for the next two weeks due to Wimbledon and reruns.
But at this point, he's still beating Letterman.

The real test though will be in September, when there's new programming on and people will be back to routine.

But a while back, I came to a realization that O'Brien's problem probably wasn't so much Jay Leno as it was David Letterman.

For the first three months O'Brien's ratings slid to low but ok (or "pretty good" as Andy Richter says) ratings but he was beating Letterman consistently. Letterman was duking it out with Nightline and occasionally getting beat by Nightline.

Then when the blackmail scandal hit, Letterman's numbers jumped, vaulting him past O'Brien.
And enough of those viewers were now staying with Letterman to the point where O'Brien's numbers were sliding lower and losing to Letterman more often than not.

And that's when NBC panicked.

With O'Brien losing to Letterman and the affiliates practically revolting, they had to take action to avoid the PR and financial hits right before the Comcast merger.

They tried the compromise with pushing back the Tonight Show to keep both but if NBC with their short term mentality was going to fry anyone, it was going to be O'Brien simply because they'd only have to pay him out $35-40 million compared to the $150 million they'd have to pay out Leno.

I'm still amazed at all the asinine moves that Zucker and company have made here that resulted not only all this damage to their Late Night franchise, but their Primetime lineup as well.

And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

[ruidh]

I think NBC also had a problem with Leno at 10pm. His lead in to the local news worried the affiliates much more than O'Brien coming out. Putting Leno back at 11 was an acknowledgment that the 10opm experiment had failed.

[grondramb]

I think NBC also had a problem with Leno at 10pm. His lead in to the local news worried the affiliates much more than O'Brien coming out. Putting Leno back at 11 was an acknowledgment that the 10opm experiment had failed.


Agreed. I think NBC found out they only have an 11:30 slot and a late show and not a 10PM to give to a talk show.

Given that, I think they kept the guy they wanted.

[ruidh]

They kept the guy the affiliates wanted.

[JYoung]

I think NBC also had a problem with Leno at 10pm. His lead in to the local news worried the affiliates much more than O'Brien coming out. Putting Leno back at 11 was an acknowledgment that the 10opm experiment had failed.

Sorry, I did mention the affiliates revolting as in revolting because their local newscasts were bleeding ratings as well. I thought that was assumed but perhaps I should have made it clearer.

I don't think Zucker and company cared about that though except for the PR black eye that they were getting right before the Comcast merger.

And in their short term mentality, they didn't consider the 10 PM show a failure because it was still making them money (it was dirt cheap to make so it could drop to about 1.4 to 1.5 before they'd be worrying about it's profitability).

They kept the guy the affiliates wanted.

I don't think the affiliates cared who was kept as long as they weren't bleeding viewers on the local news casts.

[keirgrey]

It was a variety show, right? Variety shows haven't done well since the early 70s.

[doom1701]

TV By the Numbers has the handy dandy comparison charts (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/07/01/leno-still-below-conans-tonight-show-ratings-could-they-be-tied-next-week/55937).


I expected Leno to tank some and level out 1.2-1.3 (he was previously getting a 1.4 to 1.6 in the 11:30 slot).

The fact that he's fluctuating between 1.0 and 1.1 (although he dropped to 0.9 in the first bit of Summer Vacation) is a tad surprising but he hasn't hit the low of 0.8 that O'Brien did when he was trending down. And he'll probably be low for the next two weeks due to Wimbledon and reruns.
But at this point, he's still beating Letterman.

The real test though will be in September, when there's new programming on and people will be back to routine.

But a while back, I came to a realization that O'Brien's problem probably wasn't so much Jay Leno as it was David Letterman.

For the first three months O'Brien's ratings slid to low but ok (or "pretty good" as Andy Richter says) ratings but he was beating Letterman consistently. Letterman was duking it out with Nightline and occasionally getting beat by Nightline.

Then when the blackmail scandal hit, Letterman's numbers jumped, vaulting him past O'Brien.
And enough of those viewers were now staying with Letterman to the point where O'Brien's numbers were sliding lower and losing to Letterman more often than not.

And that's when NBC panicked.

With O'Brien losing to Letterman and the affiliates practically revolting, they had to take action to avoid the PR and financial hits right before the Comcast merger.

They tried the compromise with pushing back the Tonight Show to keep both but if NBC with their short term mentality was going to fry anyone, it was going to be O'Brien simply because they'd only have to pay him out $35-40 million compared to the $150 million they'd have to pay out Leno.

I'm still amazed at all the asinine moves that Zucker and company have made here that resulted not only all this damage to their Late Night franchise, but their Primetime lineup as well.

And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

JYoung, I think what you're saying is that NBC should have encouraged Conan to have sex with a bunch of staff members instead of shaking up the schedule? :)

[sonnik]

And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

Doubtful on Fallon. This was one of the things I was pondering in February; Sadly, I don't think NBC was.

[smak]

And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

That's another part of the, "Leno will make money if he doesn't go below x rating" mentality. Not thinking about the damage to the rest of the network for years to come.

And then compounding that error by bringing back Leno to 11:30.

Letterman is going to be gone in the next few years. Ferguson won't be taking over for him.

So instead of O'Brien vs a CBS newcomer, it's going to be an NBC newcomer vs a CBS newcomer.

Major advantage gone.

-smak-

[mbklein]

O'Brien's contract with TBS is for five years.

Letterman's contract currently runs through 2012.

If Letterman re-ups through 2015, and the universe tries Real Hard, it may be an NBC newcomer vs. Conan O'Brien.

I wouldn't want to be that NBC newcomer.

[JYoung]

JYoung, I think what you're saying is that NBC should have encouraged Conan to have sex with a bunch of staff members instead of shaking up the schedule? :)

I think that if it had gotten him enough viewer eyeballs, I'm sure NBC would have have loved it.


And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

That's another part of the, "Leno will make money if he doesn't go below x rating" mentality. Not thinking about the damage to the rest of the network for years to come.

And then compounding that error by bringing back Leno to 11:30.

Letterman is going to be gone in the next few years. Ferguson won't be taking over for him.

So instead of O'Brien vs a CBS newcomer, it's going to be an NBC newcomer vs a CBS newcomer.

Major advantage gone.

-smak-

I thought that Ferguson was basically guaranteed Letterman's slot in his contract when Letterman decides to retire.
What makes you say that Ferguson won't be taking over?

And yeah, NBC damaged their whole primetime lineup with these moves.

NBC did significantly worse this year than ABC, CBS, and Fox in the ratings this season.


And they still going to have a big problem when Leno's contract expires next year.
I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?
Fallon?

Doubtful on Fallon. This was one of the things I was pondering in February; Sadly, I don't think NBC was.
Oh I know that they weren't.

I think that Fallon is the worst talk show host since Magic Johnson.
I was never a fan in the first place but the times I've watched his show, not only did I not find him funny at all (with the exception of "Neil Young" doing Pants on the Ground), he's a horrible interviewer.

It's sad that Ringo Starr and Josh Topolsky are funnier and a better interviewer on his own show.

But, Fallon has Lorne Michaels in his corner. And that may be enough.

[keirgrey]

Fallon is worse than Chevy Chase? :shock:

[bryce1012]

Yeah. Jimmy Fallon certainly isn't my favorite, but he's watchable.

Also, I think I tend to sympathize with him since we seem to share the same inability to keep a straight face while telling a joke. :)

[JYoung]

Fallon is worse than Chevy Chase? :shock:

Chase's show aired in 1993.
Johnson's, the summer of 1998.

Therefore, my "since" is accurate.
:p

[keirgrey]

I thought they were contemporaries, or rather that Magic replaced Chevy. *shrugs* Chevy could still have been worse than Magic, you know. :D

[Otto]

I like Fallon. I don't watch every episode, but he's had some good guests on there that I'm interesting in seeing. Letterman has been falling off for a while now in that respect, it seems to me. His humor has staled over time. Leno was never funny to begin with.

[grondramb]

Letterman has been falling off for a while now in that respect, it seems to me. His humor has staled over time. Leno was never funny to begin with.

Letterman was edgy in the early 80's. I remember one of the two guy's in [my] circle - he was always the one to find new shows and music. He went nuts over nuts over Letterman as really new and fresh. I thought Letterman was mean.

But expecting him to edgy or even funny now is like expecting a talk show host from the 50's to be hip in the 80's.

I never found Leno to add much value to what the writers provide.

[Fofer]

I remember one of the two guy's in circle who specialized in new things going nuts over him.


I've read this sentence a few times and am struggling to understand what you're saying.

[JYoung]

I thought they were contemporaries, or rather that Magic replaced Chevy. *shrugs* Chevy could still have been worse than Magic, you know. :D

To tell you the truth, I don't think I ever actually saw Chase's show (Of course a lot of people didn't).

It was only on for six weeks and back in 1993, I was coming into work at 4 AM or 6AM.
As a result, I rarely watched any late night show.

[sonnik]

I'm doubtful that they're going to renew it but who would they put in the Tonight Show chair then?

I thought about this, and had an idea. I'm sure no one here would agree with me, but here goes...

Daniel Tosh.

Sure, he's riding on his Comedy Central show right now. But - his star is rising.

He grew up in Florida, so I think he carries that zany guy-next-door humor that Carson exhibited (of course, more adjusted to today's audience). He has a good writing staff that can follow him. The humor on Tosh.0 may be viewed as offensive to some, but I'm sure it can be honed to a broader audience. Teach him how to deal with a celebrity interview, and I think you have a viable candidate to replace Leno.

Unfortunately, as JYoung implies with the Lorne Michaels reference, NBC has this bizarre "loyalty" thing going on...

[sonnik]

If Letterman re-ups through 2015, and the universe tries Real Hard, it may be an NBC newcomer vs. Conan O'Brien.

If either NBC or CBS found themselves in a terrible bind of not being able to continue their respective late night franchises, I'd bet that they'd give TBS a nice (presumably prorated) buyout of Conan's contract if they needed/wanted him.

Dumber things have happened, as exhibited this past February.

[Fofer]

If either NBC or CBS found themselves in a terrible bind of not being able to continue their respective late night franchises, I'd bet that they'd give TBS a nice (presumably prorated) buyout of Conan's contract if they needed/wanted him.

Dumber things have happened, as exhibited this past February.

That would indeed be a hilarious twist. I'd love to see that happen. :D

[BrettStah]

I'm hoping Conan wins the Emmy that his version of the Tonight Show was nominated for. That will likely be a killer speech... and NBC is broadcasting the Emmy's (hosted by Jimmy Fallon).

[JYoung]

Unfortunately, as JYoung implies with the Lorne Michaels reference, NBC has this bizarre "loyalty" thing going on...

It's not loyalty.
These days, Lorne Michaels has almost as much sway at NBC as Carson did back in the day.

Having Michaels' in your corner means you have a powerful ally and Michaels is an Executive Producer on Fallon's current show.
As he is on 30 Rock.

[sonnik]

These days, Lorne Michaels has almost as much sway at NBC as Carson did back in the day.

"These days" being key. I'm sure you'll agree that wasn't always true...

However, I'm also talking about what seems to be a mentality, as depicted in The Late Shift, that carries from G.E. corporate. There's a chapter in the book where Jack Welch put in his vote for Leno over Letterman, simply because Leno seemed like more of a company guy.

[Gus]

I remember one of the two guy's in circle who specialized in new things going nuts over him.


I've read this sentence a few times and am struggling to understand what you're saying.Grond had two friends who kept up with new things. One of them discovered Letterman early on, enjoyed it quite a bit, and told other people about it.

But you knew that already. And I think I know what you were really saying.

[JYoung]

These days, Lorne Michaels has almost as much sway at NBC as Carson did back in the day.

"These days" being key. I'm sure you'll agree that wasn't always true...

However, I'm also talking about what seems to be a mentality, as depicted in The Late Shift, that carries from G.E. corporate. There's a chapter in the book where Jack Welch put in his vote for Leno over Letterman, simply because Leno seemed like more of a company guy.

True but I haven't heard anything that might indicate what the NBC Execs think about Fallon.

I noticed that for the most part, Fallon stayed out of the O'Brien/Leno controversy because I think that he simply didn't want to be noticed right then.

The Saturday Night Live franchise has become a big thing though.
I mean, it's been on for 35 years.
That gives Michaels a lot of sway at NBC New York.

[Fofer]

Grond had two friends who kept up with new things. One of them discovered Letterman early on, enjoyed it quite a bit, and told other people about it.

But you knew that already. And I think I know what you were really saying.

What do you think I was "really saying?" I was struggling to parse Grondamb's sentence and asked him for clarification. To say that I "knew" your explanation already, and that I was somehow implying something else? I don't get it.

I see he has now edited his post and it's much clearer, and fits understandably into the context of this discussion's flow.

[5thcrewman]

I'd watch TTS w/Russell Brand at least a few times.